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"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."
1 Corinthians 1:27
I think this is the aspect of religion which confuses most atheists and skeptics. They just don't see the value in pretending. But isn't that what we do with children all the time? Reality is too much for children to handle, so we have to "embellish" the truth. And when the truth contains a large element of mystery, then there is naturally going to be a large grey area of unknown where people grow up in a religion and are never entirely sure of what is pretend and what is not. They eventually realize that Santa Claus is imaginary, but his spirit is not. And in reality, we don't know if there is not some real unseen spirit that is a part of the charity which makes itself known during Yuletide.
In the documentary film "Jesus Camp" it portrays children at a Christian camp engaged in charismatic worship. You can tell that some of the children are probably pretending. But there is something in that kind of play. The conclusion is that the playtime is a part of their development.
And perhaps that "play" should evolve and grow as we become adults. We will never know all the mysteries of God, so why even try to explain it? The rituals that we engage at church or the workplace are never going to go away. The most mature adult knows that "pretending" is a part of reality. So anyone (specifically atheists and skeptics) who attempts to deny the irrational and unknown truth of the universe is going to look...immature. Less mature than the religious people. Yes. So we might as well learn to understand religion better.
What do you think? Should people accept pretending as a part of acknowledging the mysterious and unknown, but no less real, parts of the universe?
"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."
1 Corinthians 1:27
I think this is the aspect of religion which confuses most atheists and skeptics. They just don't see the value in pretending. But isn't that what we do with children all the time? Reality is too much for children to handle, so we have to "embellish" the truth. And when the truth contains a large element of mystery, then there is naturally going to be a large grey area of unknown where people grow up in a religion and are never entirely sure of what is pretend and what is not. They eventually realize that Santa Claus is imaginary, but his spirit is not. And in reality, we don't know if there is not some real unseen spirit that is a part of the charity which makes itself known during Yuletide.
In the documentary film "Jesus Camp" it portrays children at a Christian camp engaged in charismatic worship. You can tell that some of the children are probably pretending. But there is something in that kind of play. The conclusion is that the playtime is a part of their development.
And perhaps that "play" should evolve and grow as we become adults. We will never know all the mysteries of God, so why even try to explain it? The rituals that we engage at church or the workplace are never going to go away. The most mature adult knows that "pretending" is a part of reality. So anyone (specifically atheists and skeptics) who attempts to deny the irrational and unknown truth of the universe is going to look...immature. Less mature than the religious people. Yes. So we might as well learn to understand religion better.
What do you think? Should people accept pretending as a part of acknowledging the mysterious and unknown, but no less real, parts of the universe?
You appear to be confused about the dangers of pretending, especially with regard to religion.
But you pretend to know better than us (again), as it seems to sooth this insecurity you have, especially with straw atheists.
"pretending" in order to teach people is one thing.
pretending in order to oppress people is quite another thing.
"pretending" that dude died, woke up, and flew away for our sins is bad on any level.
"parenting" that a man gave his life to show that "learning/caring" will kill/overcome "ignorance/indifference" is quite another matter.
Yes. And the mature thing to do is to recognize what kind of pretending is helpful.
Sometimes I wonder if the gospel storywriters considered it the right thing to do to explain that a young woman who was pregnant out of wedlock, should be accepted into the community by pretending that her child's conception was a holy thing. No one should be shunned and rejected for one "mistake". Not only that, but something good can come from that mistake. But this is just speculation.
"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."
1 Corinthians 1:27
I think this is the aspect of religion which confuses most atheists and skeptics. They just don't see the value in pretending. But isn't that what we do with children all the time? Reality is too much for children to handle, so we have to "embellish" the truth. And when the truth contains a large element of mystery, then there is naturally going to be a large grey area of unknown where people grow up in a religion and are never entirely sure of what is pretend and what is not. They eventually realize that Santa Claus is imaginary, but his spirit is not. And in reality, we don't know if there is not some real unseen spirit that is a part of the charity which makes itself known during Yuletide.
In the documentary film "Jesus Camp" it portrays children at a Christian camp engaged in charismatic worship. You can tell that some of the children are probably pretending. But there is something in that kind of play. The conclusion is that the playtime is a part of their development.
And perhaps that "play" should evolve and grow as we become adults. We will never know all the mysteries of God, so why even try to explain it? The rituals that we engage at church or the workplace are never going to go away. The most mature adult knows that "pretending" is a part of reality. So anyone (specifically atheists and skeptics) who attempts to deny the irrational and unknown truth of the universe is going to look...immature. Less mature than the religious people. Yes. So we might as well learn to understand religion better.
What do you think? Should people accept pretending as a part of acknowledging the mysterious and unknown, but no less real, parts of the universe?
Probably related to modern day Christianity for the most part.
And not that I have anything against how things start for many Christian children but I remember watching a program a few years ago where this was looked as one of the biggest theological mistakes in Christianity when you introduce religion to the kids with a lie.
In many cases it has a long lasting adverse psychological effects where these kids find it hard to trust and build a strong faith in later years of their lives. And many actually leave.
I think if growing up in such an environment, it may come natural to many of us and we would naturally ask, “if this (my most favorite Santa thingy) is a lie, then what else is also a lie in this doctrine?”
Last edited by GoCardinals; 12-09-2018 at 09:18 AM..
So we are supposed to pretend because children do, but we aren't supposed to know what is real and what isn't, and that is a virtue?
We are going to assume the existence of god, because pretending creates a grey area of unknown truth, and atheists are immature because we want to determine the truth?
"Santa Claus is imaginary, but his spirit is not." - Great sentence!
Ozzy, do you rem the award winning movie It's a Beautiful Life?
If not, get it...it is ALL about pretending.
(What you are missing is that there is another layer of understanding and that is: Nothing you see is real anyway, my friend.)
Also, see King of Hearts, all the way to the end, on this very subject. Alan Bates
There is a lot to unpack in this one, but I'll try to keep it focused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
"
I think this is the aspect of religion which confuses most atheists and skeptics. They just don't see the value in pretending. But isn't that what we do with children all the time? Reality is too much for children to handle, so we have to "embellish" the truth. And when the truth contains a large element of mystery, then there is naturally going to be a large grey area of unknown where people grow up in a religion and are never entirely sure of what is pretend and what is not. They eventually realize that Santa Claus is imaginary, but his spirit is not. And in reality, we don't know if there is not some real unseen spirit that is a part of the charity which makes itself known during Yuletide.
I think I would take issue with the idea that we have to pretend for children. There is no reason we cannot give them a simplified, but reasonably accurate version of the truth. While both, "Your little brother is growing in mommy's tummy" and, "The stork is gonna come bring us a baby" are factually incorrect, one of these explanations is a not unreasonable way to simplify the truth, and one is flat out wrong. I am not expert in child development, but my understanding is that generally it is better to be as accurate as the understanding and maturity of a child allows. When we depart from this generally it is because of tradition, or because it is fun for the parents, not because it is best for the kids...
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
In the documentary film "Jesus Camp" it portrays children at a Christian camp engaged in charismatic worship. You can tell that some of the children are probably pretending. But there is something in that kind of play. The conclusion is that the playtime is a part of their development.
Here I think you are very wrong. This is something entirely different than where you started, authority figures simplifying explanations for children. MY experience is that those children in general are NOT pretending, they are as serious as they know how to be. They are mimicking the behaviour of the adults in their life, and learning how to be a grownup. When I was a child, I was deadly serious about religion. It was one thing that I never "pretended' about. I knew better, because this was the most important thing in the world. There was nothing "play" about it. Children understand the concept of pretend and real fairly early. They know that when they pretend to be an astronaut, or a cowboy that it is different than being a real one, that riding a pretend horse is different than riding a real one. And I think that what you saw in Jesus Camp is not pretend. The adults involved don't think so, and the children are going to take their cues from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
And perhaps that "play" should evolve and grow as we become adults. We will never know all the mysteries of God, so why even try to explain it? The rituals that we engage at church or the workplace are never going to go away. The most mature adult knows that "pretending" is a part of reality. So anyone (specifically atheists and skeptics) who attempts to deny the irrational and unknown truth of the universe is going to look...immature. Less mature than the religious people. Yes. So we might as well learn to understand religion better.
This is a bit confusing on two levels. First you seem to be arguing that "pretending" is a behavior born of an immature mind, a childish behavior, but that those who chose not to engage in it as adults are being immature? That doesn't really make sense...
Secondly, as I said before even small children can distinguish between "pretend" and "real". "Pretend" is a self aware choice, that is you know it isn't real. If you don't know that you are not in fact a cowboy or and astronaut, that isn't pretend any more, it is delusion. So for adult religion to be an extension of pretend, the practitioner has to acknowledge that it isn't real, that it is make believe. Otherwisde, it isn't pretend, and it certainly isn't "play"
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
What do you think? Should people accept pretending as a part of acknowledging the mysterious and unknown, but no less real, parts of the universe?
As an atheist, I actually am with you on this! I am one hundred percent behind accepting pretending as a means of coping with a universe that is uncomfortable and incompletely understood. My question to you is which parts of what you believe are pretend? That is what beliefs do you espouse that you know are false and incorrect but you hold them because it makes you feel better? I would submit that the vast majority of the religious are not pretending at all! From primitive baptists, to buddhists, muslims, to unitarians, I think very few people are pretending about their faith...
-NoCapo
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