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Old 12-17-2018, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Religion does the same as medical therapy but often more effectively. Unfortunately some people hate religion so much they would reject it even if it would help them.
Remind me again about the Catholic man under discussion in the op. He must have been an atheist, right?
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Old 12-17-2018, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,999 posts, read 517,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Religion does the same as medical therapy but often more effectively.
So you keep asserting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Unfortunately some people hate religion so much they would reject it even if it would help them.
Because what religion can do, other methods can often do as well. Group therapy, counseling, etc.

And where other methods can not (such as saying a loved one is in heaven (or in this instance, not)), they are of no use to atheists because they do not believe.
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Old 12-17-2018, 08:13 AM
 
3,549 posts, read 2,565,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
But to me, this is no way to comfort mourners. It is a public shaming, and why?
I always see the first function of a priest - before any other function he should have or chooses to bring on himself - to be as a teacher and communicator of the doctrines of his church and the tenets of his faith. If he is presiding over a suicide - and his church has specific teachings relevant to the subject of suicide - then I certainly think he is warranted in communicating those teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
This is a Catholic thing. Protestants do not believe this.
I think many of them do - but whether it is actually officially a doctrine of their faith is another question. What Catholics or protestants believe - and what their faith actually claims is true - are not always the same thing. Pretty much no Catholics I have met know half the stuff their are actually meant to believe to be catholic.

It is not limited to those two religions either though. One of the Muslims around here on this very forum once wrote that suicide is forbidden in Islam and "a person who does so" "will be punished for doing so.". He also wrote that suicide is "the last act of hatred a person makes."

If this is the hateful stuff a religion teaches then I _want_ the teachers and followers of that religion to say it openly and loudly for everyone to hear. I want them to know exactly what it is the religion they subscribe to, support and sometimes even finance - actually teaches.
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Old 12-19-2018, 06:01 PM
 
7,799 posts, read 4,618,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Religion does the same as medical therapy but often more effectively. Unfortunately some people hate religion so much they would reject it even if it would help them.
It does? What evidence do you offer? And I wonder, do you yourself see a doctor, or do you let religion work it's greater effectiveness?
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
That's been Catholic doctrine for centuries and has only fairly recently (in the time frame of the Church)began to be modified.
Thats only because they are more concerned about possibly offending someone.


Jesus warned times would come when the faithful are hated and despised by the secular world...in order to be hated and despised, people would have to be doing or saying things that very much offends the secular world.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
As much as I disagree with the way the priest handled this, I think that the Catholics do have a minor point in this particular sin being such a bad one. The reason is because it is kind of selfish and can have a negative effect on other people in his life. If a person has to resort to this it is often evidence that he has not been able to pull himself out of a depression, which is often just a psychological condition. Something that can often be easily achieved by focusing on other people who have REAL needs that he would be able to help them with, taking the focus off himself and putting his own problems in better perspective. Obviously, I'm not referring to people who might be undergoing a difficult physical condition.
I'd like to ask, have you pulled yourself out of deep depression and stopped yourself from committing suicide? Or your son or daughter?

You say suicide is "kind of selfish" but one has to understand the pain these victims of suicide live through. I watched my son go through this pain. Sure, the negative impact on those near him is profound but I do not consider him to be selfish in his act. He was going through absolute hell. The irony of it all is that there was help available, only no-one in a position to actually help him knew about it. That includes the medical profession who in some ways actually made it worse for him.
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I'd like to ask, have you pulled yourself out of deep depression and stopped yourself from committing suicide? Or your son or daughter?

You say suicide is "kind of selfish" but one has to understand the pain these victims of suicide live through. I watched my son go through this pain. Sure, the negative impact on those near him is profound but I do not consider him to be selfish in his act. He was going through absolute hell. The irony of it all is that there was help available, only no-one in a position to actually help him knew about it. That includes the medical profession who in some ways actually made it worse for him.
I'm sorry you found it necessary to try to explain to someone like OzzyRules who has shown so little understanding of much in this world or seems to have learned anything at all even after explanations have been given.
Sometimes I think it can only be a BTDT to understand
But perhaps some of the silent onlookers might benefit so thank you for trying.
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:38 PM
 
10,059 posts, read 2,730,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Religion does the same as medical therapy but often more effectively. Unfortunately some people hate religion so much they would reject it even if it would help them.
But it doesn't. Proven.

Templeton (a very religious guy) put millions into studies. Others have also:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-prescription/

"a study done in 1997 studied 40 alcoholics in recovery. Those who were prayed for did worse than those who were not."

Lots of studies.

Now - it IS a fact that Placebos work. In fact, there are drugs (dangerous ones!) that millions of Americans are taking that work only 5% better than sugar pills (placebo)....maybe 35% effective instead of 30%.

If I "had faith" the CBD oil was going to cure all my ills, it would likely have some effect on me.

Meditation is PROVEN to work medically. Buddhism is therefore perhaps the most accurate of the major religions...as true Buddhism is only about one thing - meditation.

Some aspects of Religion contain meditation (contemplation, focus) and other involve the feeling of community. These are, again, medically and otherwise proven to help human beings deal with the modern world and stress, etc.

I would never reject anything that would help me. But many of us have a very low threshold for BS, so even if a religion contained positive attributes we just could not sit there and do or say things that were false or proved that we were "part of a crowd or club"....that perhaps we were not sincere about.

Religion is definitely the opiate of the masses - but many don't like opiates. They want a different drug.
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Old 12-21-2018, 05:46 PM
 
10,059 posts, read 2,730,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I'd like to ask, have you pulled yourself out of deep depression and stopped yourself from committing suicide? Or your son or daughter?

You say suicide is "kind of selfish" but one has to understand the pain these victims of suicide live through. I watched my son go through this pain. Sure, the negative impact on those near him is profound but I do not consider him to be selfish in his act. He was going through absolute hell. The irony of it all is that there was help available, only no-one in a position to actually help him knew about it. That includes the medical profession who in some ways actually made it worse for him.
We are now stepping way out of religion and into the social sciences.

Obviously the Priest is FOS....at the same time, all religions have pooh-poohed suicide for historical reasons - people might get the wrong idea and end their own suffering (slaves, the poor ,etc.) and therefore society wouldn't have all the able bodies it needed for tasks, wars, etc.

But I agree with you. No one has the right to comment on the pain of depression. I had the luck (funny to call it that!) of having a major episode in my 30's that checked all the boxes. I thought I was having a heart attack but then it lasted weeks....no sleep, no joy, feeling of heart palpitations and fear.

It remains, to this day, the most pain I have ever felt. If my life was like that full time I would have to end it.

I am not dogmatically religious but one of those people who think the actual truth (the universe) is actually much MORE existing and fascination and mysterious than many religions do. In other words, I'm not a hedonist or true bohemian in the sense of me-me-me, but rather a responsible family man, employer and member of society.

I do think - after a lifetime of contemplation - that our day to day purpose has much to do with seeking pleasure and the avoidance of pain (same thing, really).
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Old 12-22-2018, 11:22 AM
 
7,240 posts, read 1,764,983 times
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Actually, this is the main thing that kept from committing suicide back when I was first coming off heroin, I truly wanted to die, I even planned it and bought the supplies I needed to do it, but when the time came, I could not do it...something kept telling me that its foolish to put myself 'somewhere' that I know absolutely NOTHING about.


Someone also asked me "how did I know suicide would relieve the situation and make me feel better", what if I ended up 'somewhere' that was MUCH worse than what I was going thru? (cannot kill yourself more than once).


Besides the total unknown in the afterlife, when someone commits suicide...ultimately they are not able to feel the relief they are seeking by killing themselves in the first place.

Last edited by mensaguy; 12-22-2018 at 02:20 PM.. Reason: Read the rules. Don't use red text.
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