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Old Yesterday, 08:57 PM
 
9,954 posts, read 2,708,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Maybe they're closing because Jesus isn't lifting a finger to help them because he simply doesn't exist.

Notice that in about 10 posts deriding my OP not a single poster mentioned Jesus' inaction. Not even a glimmer of excuse-making for why he's so conspicuously absent. I mean doesn't that fact alone tell us that Christians have absolutely no explanation for Jesus' so-obvious absence???
I think you've heard and know the answer to this.

"God works in mysterious ways"
"God has his own plan and who are we to suggest course?"
"This world isn't the right place for God to intervene"
or perhaps the most accurate:
"God helps those who help themselves".

and so on.....

By most accurate measures, the lack of Christianity (church going, etc.) has better outcomes (Europe) than the more astute "practice" of it (US Bible Belt).

I think most modern societies will tend less and less religious. (The lack of) God really seems to love China, as it has brought more people out of poverty quicker than any nation in the history of the world. On the other hand, "Christian" Russia is the capital of porn, corruption and depression.

You can judge a tree by its fruit. In the USA the fruits aren't very sweet.
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Old Yesterday, 09:02 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,242 posts, read 4,402,715 times
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Islamists also accept evolution (although not for humans) and probably really like social Darwinism.
Christians don't even accept evolution for animals.
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 PM
 
1,328 posts, read 1,816,985 times
Reputation: 1663
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post

Seems Jesus cares more about Islamists than he does those of the church he set up.

But this isn't about the numbers so much as it is about educated people in countries rich with excellent education systems finally waking up to the fact that Jesus is MIA. He's nowhere to be found---except in the hearts of the few stalwart believers who carry on.

Notice that in about 10 posts deriding my OP not a single poster mentioned Jesus' inaction. Not even a glimmer of excuse-making for why he's so conspicuously absent. I mean doesn't that fact alone tell us that Christians have absolutely no explanation for Jesus' so-obvious absence???
Deductive reasoning, if I may, based on the path of your premise...

A. Churches closing confirm deity (Jesus) does not exist. This premise, by default, would have an increase in Churches proving that the deity of that religion exists.
B. Mosques are growing in numbers and replacing failing Christian Churches in England.
C. Based on A and B above, this is proof Allah exists.

Do you concur with "C" above?

Have you started a supportive thread based on the reasoning over on the Islam forum?

Last edited by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...?; Yesterday at 09:07 PM.. Reason: Spelling Error
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Old Yesterday, 09:19 PM
 
1,169 posts, read 211,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
Deductive reasoning, if I may, based on the path of your premise...

A. Churches closing confirm deity (Jesus) does not exist. This premise, by default, would have an increase in Churches proving that the deity of that religion exists.
B. Mosques are growing in numbers and replacing failing Christian Churches in England.
C. Based on A and B above, this is proof Allah exists.

Do you concur with "C" above?

Have you started a supportive thread based on the reasoning over on the Islam forum?

You are being too logical, I don't think he can see his conclusion is not supported by his argument.
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Old Yesterday, 10:20 PM
 
10,371 posts, read 10,693,930 times
Reputation: 3142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
Deductive reasoning, if I may, based on the path of your premise...

A. Churches closing confirm deity (Jesus) does not exist. This premise, by default, would have an increase in Churches proving that the deity of that religion exists.
B. Mosques are growing in numbers and replacing failing Christian Churches in England.
C. Based on A and B above, this is proof Allah exists.

Do you concur with "C" above?

Have you started a supportive thread based on the reasoning over on the Islam forum?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelogo View Post
You are being too logical, I don't think he can see his conclusion is not supported by his argument.
No, that is not the case. I do not go with Should's deductive reasoning--which isn't any reasoning at all.

I can deconstruct his premise easily.

Church closings strongly HINT at a deity that doesn't exist (Jesus). It does not confirm as Should well knows.

But we take it for granted that someone who professes to care for its people tries to help them out whenever and wherever it can. Such is not the case with Jesus and his people. Jesus made promises to his people

Quote:
and, lo, I am with you alway, unto the end of the world.
Quote:
If you ask the father for anything in my name he will give it to you
Quote:
No one will snatch you out of my hands
But where are these promises today?

I certainly don't see them being fulfilled.

A child contracts cancer. The parents pray, "Jesus, your word says that if we ask for anything in your name you will grant it. We ask on faith in Jesus name that our sick child be cured of this dreaded disease. You are the great physician. We claim victory over satan in your name. Amen"

And the child dies anyway, in the most dreadful agony you can imagine. Happens thousands of times every day. And Jesus doesn't cure a one--except for the occasional oddball spontaneous remission Jeffbase bragged about in his thread.

So, no I don't say it proves Jesus doesn't exist. But for anyone with half a brain who can do deductive reasoning they would say it strongly hints that there is no one there to carry out the promises made by Jesus 2000 years ago.

Odd thing that miracles stopped with Jesus, right?
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Old Yesterday, 10:55 PM
 
1,328 posts, read 1,816,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
No, that is not the case. I do not go with Should's deductive reasoning--which isn't any reasoning at all.

I can deconstruct his premise easily.

Church closings strongly HINT at a deity that doesn't exist (Jesus). It does not confirm as Should well knows.

But we take it for granted that someone who professes to care for its people tries to help them out whenever and wherever it can. Such is not the case with Jesus and his people. Jesus made promises to his people
I do not think my deduction has been wholly deconstructed as much as you have qualified it in regards to the degree of certainty.

In which case I would respectfully submit that the level passion and conviction of your argument would weigh more heavily to certainty, IMO, rather than a mere hint. Furthermore, even if we reduce the level of certainty to the "hint" level, the default of your premise "hints" to the existence of Allah as a Celestial Deity. This would place you in the position of accepting the possibility Celestial Deity's exist (taking into account your argument of the number of existing Churches "hinting" a deity exits or not).

So again, have you performed any studies or research regarding the increase in mosques paralleling any proof or stronger evidence that Allah exists as a Celestial Deity? And have you submitted same as a thread in the Islam forum?
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Old Yesterday, 11:51 PM
 
10,371 posts, read 10,693,930 times
Reputation: 3142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
I do not think my deduction has been wholly deconstructed as much as you have qualified it in regards to the degree of certainty.

In which case I would respectfully submit that the level passion and conviction of your argument would weigh more heavily to certainty, IMO, rather than a mere hint. Furthermore, even if we reduce the level of certainty to the "hint" level, the default of your premise "hints" to the existence of Allah as a Celestial Deity. This would place you in the position of accepting the possibility Celestial Deity's exist (taking into account your argument of the number of existing Churches "hinting" a deity exits or not).

So again, have you performed any studies or research regarding the increase in mosques paralleling any proof or stronger evidence that Allah exists as a Celestial Deity? And have you submitted same as a thread in the Islam forum?
No, I'm not going to allow you to derail the conversation by dragging me into a discussion about Allah and Islam. The point of the conversation is the failing Christian churches and the failing of Christianity in general in 1st World countries because a good education has woken them up to the fact that the Jesus, Son of God is not alive today and not in any control of the church that bears his name. My observations and the observations of many here and millions across the globe is that there is no Supreme being named Jesus guiding their religion and the strong circumstantial evidence for this is that Jesus doesn't appear anywhere, he doesn't protect his churches or his faith, he doesn't answer the prayers of his people, he doesn't communicate in any way with humanity except in the very subjective manner of talking to to the hearts of people who believe strongly in him--and the stronger they believe the stronger his voice is in their hearts. Purely subjective stuff and no evidence at all of his presence in reality.

If you have any tangible evidence Jesus is alive today and is answering prayers and delivering his church from impending extinction I would love for you to present it to us. Please tell all of us how you know with certainty---beside this nonsense of "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!" ---that Jesus is alive today.

Tell me and if it's tangible evidence--that is, evidence that we can all see--then I will believe in Jesus and accept him once again.

Now the ball is in your court, ShouldIMoveOrStayPut. Make your move. Or simply admit you have no tangible evidence. No one, except the Christians here, perhaps, will think the less of you for admitting what we already know.
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Old Today, 08:19 AM
 
1,328 posts, read 1,816,985 times
Reputation: 1663
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If you have any tangible evidence Jesus is alive today and is answering prayers and delivering his church from impending extinction I would love for you to present it to us. Please tell all of us how you know with certainty---beside this nonsense of "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!" ---that Jesus is alive today.

Tell me and if it's tangible evidence--that is, evidence that we can all see--then I will believe in Jesus and accept him once again.

Now the ball is in your court, ShouldIMoveOrStayPut. Make your move. Or simply admit you have no tangible evidence. No one, except the Christians here, perhaps, will think the less of you for admitting what we already know.
LOL... I'm a mere Agnostic. We take the position generally that there is no God, but if someone comes along with evidence and/or God presents Him/Her/Itself well OK then! Sure enough, there's a God after all!!...

Look at your initial post, you come on sure of yourself, your post is formatted in an organized fashion with sources cited to back your opinion. Similar to a Philosophy student reciting a dissertation, or a Scientist claiming results while not keeping the variables and potential polarities of the research observed and in check.

It is your hypothesis/research to prove and defend. Your fellow professors/students or fellow scientists are not required to prove the opposite if they question or test the measure of your work/research for validity.

And I'm not really digging that deep either, but simply pointing out an inconvenient polarity in your premise (which you have yet to defend). This would remain as is in a Philosophy dissertation, if I were a scientist, I might observe the rat in cage "B" is acting different than your research would have them act.

So it's really not so much that it is "my move", but more that you have placed yourself in checkmate!
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Old Today, 10:42 AM
 
10,371 posts, read 10,693,930 times
Reputation: 3142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
LOL... I'm a mere Agnostic. We take the position generally that there is no God, but if someone comes along with evidence and/or God presents Him/Her/Itself well OK then! Sure enough, there's a God after all!!...

Look at your initial post, you come on sure of yourself, your post is formatted in an organized fashion with sources cited to back your opinion. Similar to a Philosophy student reciting a dissertation, or a Scientist claiming results while not keeping the variables and potential polarities of the research observed and in check.

It is your hypothesis/research to prove and defend. Your fellow professors/students or fellow scientists are not required to prove the opposite if they question or test the measure of your work/research for validity.

And I'm not really digging that deep either, but simply pointing out an inconvenient polarity in your premise (which you have yet to defend). This would remain as is in a Philosophy dissertation, if I were a scientist, I might observe the rat in cage "B" is acting different than your research would have them act.

So it's really not so much that it is "my move", but more that you have placed yourself in checkmate!
Good enough. I didn't pick up from the conversation that you were agnostic. You sound just like a Fundie. So let's run with what you've said.

>>>>I come off as sure of myself.

Personally I AM sure of myself. I was a Christian fundamentalist for 60 years until roughly 2010 or so. You can dig out my posts from 2008 when I was vigorously defending Jesus but mocking the rapture. Then I started reading about Jesus and found there was no history to back him up. Add to that the fact he didn't seem to be anywhere into today's world protecting Christians from anything harmful. I saw buses filled with Christian choirs and basketball teams blowing a tire and flying off a cliff or getting hit head on at 60 MPH and I asked myself "What kind of a savior would say "I am with you always' and then hurl a 60 MPH truck into a bus full of innocent teen Christians who would have gone on to serve Jesus in some way. Now Jeffbase thinks the reason God killed them was because they'd go on to become murders, rapists, and robbers and such which to me is totally harebrained. This screamed at me that there is no Jesus protecting Christians anymore than Zeus is protecting people who believe in him.

>>>>It is your hypothesis/research to prove and defend.

This is not a philosophy dissertation. I don't have to do anything except present overwhelming circumstantial evidence Jesus is a figment of Christians's imaginations. I think I have done that. I will repeat for you in case you missed it:

You cannot see Jesus. You cannot hear him. You cannot smell him. He doesn't answer any prayers. He doesn't manifest himself at all. He doesn't take care of his people. He does absolutely nothing discernible to anyone except those who fervently believe in him. In those cases they have visions of him that no one else can see him. The hear his his voice when no one else can. At the very least they get this warm fuzzy feeling in their heart when they believe Jesus is there with them.

They behave exactly the way you'd expect some in a mental institution to---they hallucinate Napolean visiting them and have conversations with him but no one else can see or hear him.

No if I have misstated the circumstantial evidence please point it out to me.
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Old Today, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
5,795 posts, read 5,643,941 times
Reputation: 5039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Perhaps these churches are dying because they are lukewarm, as noted in Rev. 3.
Most churches are dying because their parishioners are literally dying and their buildings are small, old and outdated and located in parts of town that are changing.

Meanwhile Jesus is buying up all the old supermarkets, and buildings that Walmart has killed for his new gig.

Jesus is also bailing on pianos and organs and is going with the electric sound. No more hymns for him.
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