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Old Yesterday, 11:45 AM
Status: "Liberals used to be for border security." (set 18 hours ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,328 posts, read 8,373,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Perhaps these churches are dying because they are lukewarm, as noted in Rev. 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Most churches are dying because their parishioners are literally dying and their buildings are small, old and outdated and located in parts of town that are changing.

Meanwhile Jesus is buying up all the old supermarkets, and buildings that Walmart has killed for his new gig.

Jesus is also bailing on pianos and organs and is going with the electric sound. No more hymns for him.
Do you have any data to back that up?
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Old Yesterday, 11:51 AM
Status: "Liberals used to be for border security." (set 18 hours ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,328 posts, read 8,373,107 times
Reputation: 1554
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Maybe they're closing because Jesus isn't lifting a finger to help them because he simply doesn't exist.

Look, jimmi (welcome back, by the way ) Jesus could solve this problem and shut me and other vocal skeptics up forever if he would just do something.

JUST.....DO...SOMETHING! Anything!!!!

But he lets his house of worships shut down by the thousands. He lets millions of former Christians walk away from him. All this despite hundreds of millions of prayers offered up for just opposite results. All without giving a single sign or indication he cares.

He's behaving EXACTLY like we would expect him to behave if he wasn't real.

Now someone pointed out that churches are opening. That's well and good, though I don't think there's many people anywhere who are crazy enough from a financial point of view to open a church these days. But I haven't mentioned other places in the world such as Europe where church closings are going on faster than they are here. In fact, American is something of a success story when it comes to keeping churches open.

Try Great Britain



https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/06/...-christianity/

or this:



https://www.christianpost.com/news/5...ty-report.html

Seems Jesus cares more about Islamists than he does those of the church he set up.

But this isn't about the numbers so much as it is about educated people in countries rich with excellent education systems finally waking up to the fact that Jesus is MIA. He's nowhere to be found---except in the hearts of the few stalwart believers who carry on.

Notice that in about 10 posts deriding my OP not a single poster mentioned Jesus' inaction. Not even a glimmer of excuse-making for why he's so conspicuously absent. I mean doesn't that fact alone tell us that Christians have absolutely no explanation for Jesus' so-obvious absence???
So, for 60 years, Jesus was alive and active in your life. Then, nothing? You tolerated “nothing” for 60 years?

As for what Jesus has done lately, JeffBase gave you an example and you dismissed it out of hand. Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
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Old Yesterday, 12:44 PM
 
Location: USA
3,243 posts, read 1,115,549 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So, for 60 years, Jesus was alive and active in your life. Then, nothing? You tolerated “nothing” for 60 years?

As for what Jesus has done lately, JeffBase gave you an example and you dismissed it out of hand. Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
If you gave cherry Tootsie Pops to several thousand terminally ill people, statistically you could expect a handful to survive. So the question becomes, were the Tootsie Pops responsible for those who survived; did the Tootsie Pops KILL the others; or was it all a matter of random statistical chance? The answer either boils down to empirical observation... OR the depths of one's personal gullibility.

Or there is another way of looking at it. If God arbitrarily saves one and turns His back on thousands of others, He should be ashamed of himself.
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Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
 
786 posts, read 387,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Notwithstanding Jeffbase's crowing about Jesus curing a little girl of cancer--a girl who had already undergone several rounds of chemo and radiation, by the way (I'm still laughing over that one!)--I still had to remind Jeff that while Jesus saw fit to single out this one little girl for his divine mercy he still lets another 100,000 gravely sick children die each year despite millions of prayers sent up to Jesus by grieving parents which he clearly just ignores judging by the obituaries. Jeff's rationalization: maybe this little girl will grow up to discover a cure for cancer while the other 100,000 might grow up to become rapists, ax-murderers and even income tax cheats--horrors!

But there's another sign that Jesus, if he isn't imaginary, is just an out-and-out do-nothing: he's letting between 6,000 and 10,000 Christian churches in America shut their doors each year. Bear in mind we are NOT talking about Catholic churches--they have their own moneybags in Rome. We're talking about small independent churches who receive no help at all other than from what parishioners donate week to week. And if there are only eight or ten people in the pews each week you can bet those churches are going to be boarding up their doors and windows shortly because they won't have any money to pay the bills, let alone pay their pastor the measly salary he receives for a 16 hour a day/7 day a week job.



https://www.infowars.com/between-600...die-this-week/



https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ldings/576592/



https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...cay/565911002/



So what is Jesus doing about this sad state of affairs? Where is Jesus while the church he founded collapses all around him? What exactly is he doing for the distraught pastors, board members and parishioners who send up never-ending prayers to him for help to save their churches?

Well, I'll tell you what I know he's doing for the 10,000 churches who shutter their doors each year:

Absolutely nothing.

Jesus is letting all these churches go down without lifting a finger and you have to ask yourself just exactly what good Jesus is to anyone--I mean aside from offering them the free gift of salvation. Where is Jesus when you actually need something tangible from him? Wasn't it Jesus who said:



Sounds like more pretty but ultimately empty promises from Jesus.

And bear in mind we are not even talking about the millions of former Christians who snatch themselves out of Jesus' hands each year by leaving Christianity. Wasn't it Jesus who promised:



More worthless promises from the Man from Galilee. Definitely do NOT put your hand in THIS guy's hand.

So as I said earlier, what proof do we have in reality that this Jesus character is even aware of what is happening in his own back yard? I mean he doesn't answers any prayers to speak of, he doesn't render any help that we can visibly discern, he doesn't talk to us or communicate in any discernible way except for this warm fuzzy feeling he puts in some people's hearts who carry on a one-way conversation with him; he's not visible.

For all practical purposes Jesus is completely non-existent. And the only people I know of who are completely non-existent are people who died 2000 years ago and whose ashes are blowing around Palestine today, or someone completely fictitious like a character in a Harry Potter novel.

Or in four gospels.

We are at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-41), where the "stumbling blocks" will be "gathered out". The churches based on the sandy foundation of "many" small stones/petros, "sand", will "fall, in "that day". That day being the "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32). (Matthew 7:13-27) & (Isaiah 22:25). With internet, the gospel of the kingdom can go around the world in seconds (Matthew 24:14), while the false gospel of grace, by means of the tare seed, has been spread throughout the world over a period of millenniums.
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Old Yesterday, 01:11 PM
 
Location: USA
3,243 posts, read 1,115,549 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Do you have any data to back that up?
Churches are closing because Christianity is in the process of dying out and fading away. Fewer Christians mean fewer churches are needed.

Do I have any data to back this up? Why, yes I do!



Christianity has been declining at the rate of about 1% per year since the beginning of this century. Committed Christians like yourself will remain committed Christians as long as you live, of course. But no one lives forever. What is currently occuring is that as committed Christians die out, there are fewer and fewer committed Christians to take their place. The current trend indicates that Christianity will be all but dead by the end of this century. Much like the religions of Zeus and Odin, etc.
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Old Yesterday, 01:13 PM
 
10,375 posts, read 10,697,227 times
Reputation: 3142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So, for 60 years, Jesus was alive and active in your life. Then, nothing? You tolerated “nothing” for 60 years?

As for what Jesus has done lately, JeffBase gave you an example and you dismissed it out of hand. Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
If you gave cherry Tootsie Pops to several thousand terminally ill people, statistically you could expect a handful to survive. So the question becomes, were the Tootsie Pops responsible for those who survived; did the Tootsie Pops KILL the others; or was it all a matter of random statistical chance? The answer boils down to the depths of one's personal gullibility.

Or there is another way of looking at it. If God arbitrarily saves one and turns His back on thousands of others, He should be ashamed of himself.
Well, if Jesus was alive and active in my life for 60 years then I didn't "tolerate nothing" for 60 years, did I? Jimmi, you should really reason out your responses before pouring them willy-nilly onto the board.

As for Jeffbase's response, yes I dismissed it out of hand--because it was idiotic. Imagine saving one girl "because she might cure cancer some day" and then allowing 100,000 other Christian children to die for no good reason at all. Listen to Tired of the Nonsense above. If God arbitrarily saves one and turns His back on thousands of others, He should be ashamed of himself, playing favorites when he promises he not a respecter of person. I mean why is God talking out of both sides of his mouth? or translated for you Christians: why is the Bible contradicting itself yet again???????

Now jimmi, do you care about my salvation like all good Christians say they do or are you one of these Mike-types who say "You can choose to go to hell if you want, I don't care either way."

If you care here's how you can bring me back to Jesus:

Show me some tangible proof not from the Bible but something visible today that shows Jesus directly intervening in the world, not "he's building churches all around the world and talking to men's hearts" stuff. Jesus isn't doing that, men are.

Show me something tangible and I will renounce my apostasy and come back to Jesus. Should be simple as pie for you.

Unless you haven't got anything, of course, which if you did I'm sure you'd have responded with it in post no 2.
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Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM
 
1,172 posts, read 212,302 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
No, I'm not going to allow you to derail the conversation by dragging me into a discussion about Allah and Islam. The point of the conversation is the failing Christian churches and the failing of Christianity in general in 1st World countries because a good education has woken them up to the fact that the Jesus, Son of God is not alive today and not in any control of the church that bears his name. My observations and the observations of many here and millions across the globe is that there is no Supreme being named Jesus guiding their religion and the strong circumstantial evidence for this is that Jesus doesn't appear anywhere, he doesn't protect his churches or his faith, he doesn't answer the prayers of his people, he doesn't communicate in any way with humanity except in the very subjective manner of talking to to the hearts of people who believe strongly in him--and the stronger they believe the stronger his voice is in their hearts. Purely subjective stuff and no evidence at all of his presence in reality.

If you have any tangible evidence Jesus is alive today and is answering prayers and delivering his church from impending extinction I would love for you to present it to us. Please tell all of us how you know with certainty---beside this nonsense of "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!" ---that Jesus is alive today.

Tell me and if it's tangible evidence--that is, evidence that we can all see--then I will believe in Jesus and accept him once again.

Now the ball is in your court, ShouldIMoveOrStayPut. Make your move. Or simply admit you have no tangible evidence. No one, except the Christians here, perhaps, will think the less of you for admitting what we already know.

You are moving the goalpost, the number of churches do not prove or disprove the existence of a deity. The other poster already showed this with the example of mosques growing.
Now, you are trying to prove something that can't be proved:
...he doesn't communicate in any way with humanity except in the very subjective manner of talking to to the hearts of people who believe strongly in him...
Against this argument some thinker (don't remember who) responded to show him the love a mother had towards her children. There is no tangible evidence of LOVE, so Is this proof mother's love do not exist?

Proving the nonexistence of something is a false argument. People do not need proof for the existence of something we see; in the same way we do not need proof for something we KNOW doesn't exist: e.g. pink unicorns. We only search for proof of something somebody claims to exist, while we still can't see.

The fact that you are asking for evidence show at least of the possibility of the existence of Jesus. But again, trying to prove he doesn't exist an invalid argument.
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Old Yesterday, 01:59 PM
 
9,968 posts, read 2,714,524 times
Reputation: 8844
Some very religious multi-millionaires have funded many scientific studies to figure out whether prayer works - medically. They tried every possible angle - from 100's of people praying for one to one to one...

The Honest Christians who funded these studies saw absolutely nothing to prove that prayer moved the stats....at all. Not even a little bit.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't pray or shouldn't meditate (proven to do some good) or shouldn't carry lucky charms. Some people pray, others smoke pot, others take a pill and others sit in the hot tub....or all of these things. People need to feel as if they have SOME control or some relief from suffering.

Or, as Marx put it "Religion is the opiate of the masses". The bigger question is whether opiates are bad. Complex.
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Old Yesterday, 02:06 PM
 
786 posts, read 387,440 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, if Jesus was alive and active in my life for 60 years then I didn't "tolerate nothing" for 60 years, did I? Jimmi, you should really reason out your responses before pouring them willy-nilly onto the board.

As for Jeffbase's response, yes I dismissed it out of hand--because it was idiotic. Imagine saving one girl "because she might cure cancer some day" and then allowing 100,000 other Christian children to die for no good reason at all. Listen to Tired of the Nonsense above. If God arbitrarily saves one and turns His back on thousands of others, He should be ashamed of himself, playing favorites when he promises he not a respecter of person. I mean why is God talking out of both sides of his mouth? or translated for you Christians: why is the Bible contradicting itself yet again???????

Now jimmi, do you care about my salvation like all good Christians say they do or are you one of these Mike-types who say "You can choose to go to hell if you want, I don't care either way."

If you care here's how you can bring me back to Jesus:

Show me some tangible proof not from the Bible but something visible today that shows Jesus directly intervening in the world, not "he's building churches all around the world and talking to men's hearts" stuff. Jesus isn't doing that, men are.

Show me something tangible and I will renounce my apostasy and come back to Jesus. Should be simple as pie for you.

Unless you haven't got anything, of course, which if you did I'm sure you'd have responded with it in post no 2.
The "ruler of the world" is not "Jesus". (John 14:30) The "ruler of the world", the "dragon", rules through the "beast", kings of the world (Revelation 13:4). Your "churches", are simply daughters of "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:3-5), who sits on the "beast", such as with the Roman church relying on the authority of the kings of Rome, such as the emperor Constantine for it's position.


John 14:30
I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.
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Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM
 
10,375 posts, read 10,697,227 times
Reputation: 3142
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelogo View Post
You are moving the goalpost, the number of churches do not prove or disprove the existence of a deity. The other poster already showed this with the example of mosques growing.
Now, you are trying to prove something that can't be proved:
...he doesn't communicate in any way with humanity except in the very subjective manner of talking to to the hearts of people who believe strongly in him...
Against this argument some thinker (don't remember who) responded to show him the love a mother had towards her children. There is no tangible evidence of LOVE, so Is this proof mother's love do not exist?

Proving the nonexistence of something is a false argument. People do not need proof for the existence of something we see; in the same way we do not need proof for something we KNOW doesn't exist: e.g. pink unicorns. We only search for proof of something somebody claims to exist, while we still can't see.

The fact that you are asking for evidence show at least of the possibility of the existence of Jesus. But again, trying to prove he doesn't exist an invalid argument.
Let's look at this example, logo.

A father tells his 5 year old son, "Son, I'm going away but always remember I love you. I'll hang a picture of myself on the wall to remind you of me." Then the father leaves. For the next 60 years the father doesn't communicate with his son. He doesn't send him a birthday card or gifts. He doesn't send any money for support. He doesn't call or write. He makes absolutely no attempt to let his son know he's still alive.

The son cannot prove in a court of law his father doesn't love him, but can the son surmise from all the outward signs that his father doesn't love him or care about him? Yes or no? Be honest.
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