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I hope we don't get lost in this scuffle with logo over English which I believe he's deliberately doing to detract us from the topic. I posed the following points and raised a question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Some Christians have raised the issue:
Jesus is not responsible for his churches' success or failure.
* So Jesus isn't responsible for answering prayers despite what he says in the gospels.
* Jesus isn't responsible for keeping his houses of worship open so Christians can meet to worship him and fellowship with one another.
* Jesus isn't responsible for Christianity thriving and for keeping people saved instead of dropping out of Christianity by the millions.
What exactly is Jesus good for---just saving our souls and then leaving us homeless and sick in the streets to take care of ourselves?
Didn't Jesus say, "If you ask the Father for anything in my name he will give it it to you"?
Try praying, "Father, in Jesus name I just ask for a warm meal and a place to sleep this Christmas Eve." Go ahead you destitute Christians, pray that prayer and then see if a warm meal and a bed magically appear.
Would some Christian kindly let me (us) know just exactly why we should rely on Jesus for anything other than something as subjective as salvation? Is that the extent of Jesus' involvement with his church today? If it isn't then how does he help Christians if he doesn't answer their prayers or support his churches or help Christians when they are homeless or protect Christians from falling away from him?
Like I said in the thread title, he sounds like a big do-nothing.
I hope we don't get lost in this scuffle with logo over English which I believe he's deliberately doing to detract us from the topic. I posed the following points and raised a question:
Would some Christian kindly let me (us) know just exactly why we should rely on Jesus for anything other than something as subjective as salvation? Is that the extent of Jesus' involvement with his church today? If it isn't then how does he help Christians if he doesn't answer their prayers or support his churches or help Christians when they are homeless or protect Christians from falling away from him?
Like I said in the thread title, he sounds like a big do-nothing.
This general topic is what many of my questions revolved around when I was still a christian.
Someone would pray for a legitimate reason and sometimes things would go that way...although it was just as logical that they would have gone that way without prayer. Other times...most times...they would pray and pray and pray and nothing would happen or things would go against them. "Well, god had other plans". Okay, if god is going to do just what god wants to do anyway, then there's no need to pray. Or "God works in mysterious ways"...a stupid old chestnut.
There is NOTHING reliable about prayer. Just ask all the christian widows.
That's why the basic choices, from my point of view, are that there is no god, there is a deistic god, or god is just plain lazy.
This general topic is what many of my questions revolved around when I was still a christian.
Someone would pray for a legitimate reason and sometimes things would go that way...although it was just as logical that they would have gone that way without prayer. Other times...most times...they would pray and pray and pray and nothing would happen or things would go against them. "Well, god had other plans". Okay, if god is going to do just what god wants to do anyway, then there's no need to pray. Or "God works in mysterious ways"...a stupid old chestnut.
There is NOTHING reliable about prayer. Just ask all the christian widows.
That's why the basic choices, from my point of view, are that there is no god, there is a deistic god, or god is just plain lazy.
I acknowledge that prayer can be useful for lowering blood pressure and calming the soul. When a person prays they are having some sort of conversation with themselves that they often wrongly interpret to be conversing with God. Believing that God is listening to your troubles comforts many people.
Whether they're expecting good outcome from the prayer is a different matter. As many have said previously, statistically prayer has absolutely no effect on outcome. But lowering blood pressure through prayer is healthy and I encourage prayer as a means of soothing a restless spirit. It's good for a person to talk out their problems with themselves because often by talking out loud our minds come up with solutions that we never would have thought of had we not prayed.
So pray! Just don't expect any supernatural power to intervene on your behalf.
I acknowledge that prayer can be useful for lowering blood pressure and calming the soul. When a person prays they are having some sort of conversation with themselves that they often wrongly interpret to be conversing with God. Believing that God is listening to your troubles comforts many people.
Whether they're expecting good outcome from the prayer is a different matter. As many have said previously, statistically prayer has absolutely no effect on outcome. But lowering blood pressure through prayer is healthy and I encourage prayer as a means of soothing a restless spirit. It's good for a person to talk out their problems with themselves because often by talking out loud our minds come up with solutions that we never would have thought of had we not prayed.
So pray! Just don't expect any supernatural power to intervene on your behalf.
Come on, give the guy a bit of a break.
Thrill also has a title up...
"Dead Missionary Proves Beyond Shadow of Doubt Jesus is Imaginary "
I didn't know that until he mentioned it. I don't read much in the religious section, but I took an interest in this thread because I was once in the same situation as the OP. I was raised catholic and when I became an adult I completely stopped believing. But the more I read atheist books the clearer it became that they are wrong in the position, not their arguments. Their arguments against organized religion and childish interpretation of the bible are very good.
That brings me to this position in which I don't agree with neither organized religion nor atheism. After some point it becomes a personal path. And you start seeing how god manifests not in what atheists criticize, as in the future churches will probably continue to decrease-with the exception of megachurches which are like big businesses- but in quite other people and quite other aspects of life.
I just read Thrill last comment:
"Just don't expect any supernatural power to intervene on your behalf."
But in the paragraph before you'll find: "...I encourage prayer as a means of soothing a restless spirit," and "I acknowledge that prayer can be useful for lowering blood pressure and calming the soul."
That is the type of contradiction in his arguments I was pointing before: I must be speaking in a foreign language.
I didn't know that until he mentioned it. I don't read much in the religious section, but I took an interest in this thread because I was once in the same situation as the OP. I was raised catholic and when I became an adult I completely stopped believing. But the more I read atheist books the clearer it became that they are wrong in the position, not their arguments. Their arguments against organized religion and childish interpretation of the bible are very good.
That brings me to this position in which I don't agree with neither organized religion nor atheism. After some point it becomes a personal path. And you start seeing how god manifests not in what atheists criticize, as in the future churches will probably continue to decrease-with the exception of megachurches which are like big businesses- but in quite other people and quite other aspects of life.
I just read Thrill last comment:
"Just don't expect any supernatural power to intervene on your behalf."
But in the paragraph before you'll find: "...I encourage prayer as a means of soothing a restless spirit," and "I acknowledge that prayer can be useful for lowering blood pressure and calming the soul."
That is the type of contradiction in his arguments I was pointing before: I must be speaking in a foreign language.
There's no contradiction at all. He's saying that there may be some positive benefits from prayer, just not the positive benefit that's promised.
There's no contradiction at all. He's saying that there may be some positive benefits from prayer, just not the positive benefit that's promised.
I know that. That is not what I was referring to. I was talking about this:
"Just don't expect any supernatural power to intervene on your behalf."
I am interpreting this based on what he has said before: "Maybe they're closing because Jesus isn't lifting a finger to help them because he simply doesn't exist."
His believe is not that the supernatural power [Jesus in this case] listens but doesn't do anything; this side track is supposed to "hint" to us, that Jesus doesn't exist. It is proven in his eyes.
The contradiction is that he doesn't believe Jesus or any deity exist, but believes in the existence of the human soul and human spirit.
I'll leave you with that. I shouldn't have to explain such basic things.
I know that. That is not what I was referring to. I was talking about this:
"Just don't expect any supernatural power to intervene on your behalf."
I am interpreting this based on what he has said before: "Maybe they're closing because Jesus isn't lifting a finger to help them because he simply doesn't exist."
His believe is not that the supernatural power [Jesus in this case] listens but doesn't do anything; this side track is supposed to "hint" to us, that Jesus doesn't exist. It is proven in his eyes.
The contradiction is that he doesn't believe Jesus or any deity exist, but believes in the existence of the human soul and human spirit.
I'll leave you with that. I shouldn't have to explain such basic things.
Thank you for your explanation of why your interpretation of his posts is wrong.
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