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Old 01-06-2019, 09:05 PM
 
10,410 posts, read 10,735,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
I think they should own up to saying jesus made promises that he didn't make.

maybe, jesus was just saying things like "if you do the best you can, things generally, work out." If you "follow some of my instructions you have a better chance." maybe he gave some really sound self help stuff.

thats why i kind of shy away from all evil god or jesus broke promises. I think maybe he didn't make any promises past what we tell people today. I think people made the biblegod evil looking and i think people make sound teaching look stupid..
This is an important point, Arach.

Jesus didn't make these promises. But why don't Christians already know this? Is it because their pastors never tell them for fear of losing even more members than they are already losing? Or is it because 99% of Christians don't bother to open their Bible and read or they would know this?

Perhaps the gospels aren't as pristine as apologists make them out to be. Maybe they have been "doctored" to reflect lots of things that would sound good to pagans the churchmen are trying to convert. After all, copies of the gospels don't show up until the 4th century. Lots of time to play around with them and slip in things Jesus never intended his followers to believe.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,736 posts, read 9,309,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
This is an important point, Arach.

Jesus didn't make these promises. But why don't Christians already know this? Is it because their pastors never tell them for fear of losing even more members than they are already losing? Or is it because 99% of Christians don't bother to open their Bible and read or they would know this?

Perhaps the gospels aren't as pristine as apologists make them out to be. Maybe they have been "doctored" to reflect lots of things that would sound good to pagans the churchmen are trying to convert. After all, copies of the gospels don't show up until the 4th century. Lots of time to play around with them and slip in things Jesus never intended his followers to believe.
I think this is a very reasoned post.

I think back to my grandmother (who raised me), my other grandmother, several of my aunts and uncles, and a number of other people I was very close to. They all had bibles on the shelf. Never once saw any of them open their bibles. Most of them went to church weekly, and for that hour they were very religions. Then they walked back out into "real life". My grandmother on my father's side was very upset when the Catholic Mass was changed to English. I said, "Grandma...now you'll be able to understand what the priest is saying". "I don't like it. It's not right!"
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Old 01-06-2019, 10:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
I’ve missed you thrill.

I don’t think it’s up to one to question where Jesus is, when these things happen, as in the sense of an accusatory ‘he obviously doesn’t give a <<bleep>> tone, which the OP appears to have. All that tone does is highlight the darkness of ones own heart, in judging others, if one believes that person is real. If one believes Jesus is not real, then the motive has to be stir up trouble for the poor naive so and so’s who are deluded, which again, is rather dark. I mean, has one nothing better to do.

I’ve pondered apparent traumatic death experience before - who hasn’t - and found solace in NDE testimonies, especially that of Betty Eadie in her book Embraced by the light, where she says she was told by her spirit guides when on the other side, that when a person’s moment of death comes their spirit is taken from the body before the trauma happens. And, it can even appear that the person (body) is still alive yet they have already gone.

I also heard recently that the birthing experience is more traumatic for a soul than the death experience. I cannot possibly say myself, but what is clear is that pondering death is all about fear, and if any of the above is anything to go by, it could easily be the case that the fear of death is actually worse than death, ...and my spirit witnesses that that is the case.

So, by faith, when those kids were getting dragged down the road under the car (I didn’t read the article) I think I can say he was right there taking them into his loving arms. Thank you Father.
Quote:
I think I can say he was right there taking them into his loving arms. Thank you Father.
What a way to land in our savior's arms! Sort of gets you right here.

I'm trying to take the serious responses in an orderly fashion. I've missed you too, Age.

Be that as it may, I don't come here to stir up trouble. All along the way I've been asking what I feel are very relevant questions. The closest good response I got (for my money, anyway) was from Thoreau who replied,

"Jesus never made such promises"

to which I asked

"Well, then why do Christians believe he did and pray for protection every day?"

To which you reply,

"It's not for us to question the who, what, where, when, or why of how Jesus behaves."

To which I then ask,

"Well, then what's the point of praying?"

But if you're just going to tell us that Christians shouldn't reason why, they should just do and die, then I'm going to have to ask,

"Why should I die if I can't even know the reason why?"

And that's part of why I had to give up Christianity.

Now in brief partial recap I asked, "Why did these children have to die so horribly smeared all over an asphalt Interstate?" and Thoreau gave me the closest answer to something tangible: "Jesus doesn't protect people, at least he never promised he would." I recall even Mike 555 owning up to this. Good for him.

Nevertheless

99% of Christians are taught and believe Jesus WILL protect them from harm or else they wouldn't be praying to him for protection, true?

So another critical question arises from all this:

"If it's not in the Bible that Jesus will protect us, Psalm 91 and other similar passages notwithstanding, yet millions of Christians pray for Jesus to protect them, then HOW on earth did this belief arise???????

And more critically, "WHY did this belief arise????

Last edited by mensaguy; Yesterday at 06:48 AM.. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
God/Jesus never said or ever indicated that he would run to our rescue, save us from the flying bullet, etc.
Yet he did! He said....
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.Matt 21:22

...and so, if Christians ask for protection in prayer every morning then they should come to no harm because their god has promised that he will protect them if they ask...and yet they still die! Perhaps they forgot to ask huh?

Quote:
Anyone saying otherwise is completely ignorant of what the Bible says ...
WE can see what the bible says in Matt 21:22

Quote:
Jesus even talks about not worrying about tomorrow, and focusing on today. There are scriptures along those lines.
...and there are scriptures telling you sell all your possessions, give the money to the poor and not worrying because Jesus will look after you, yet I'd wager you haven't done that nor do you intend to.

Quote:
People are stupidly trying to change him into a bodyguard.
'And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.'
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Old Yesterday, 01:22 AM
 
1,556 posts, read 637,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
What a way to land in our savior's arms! Sort of gets you right here.

I'm trying to take the serious responses in an orderly fashion. I've missed you too, Age.

Be that as it may, I don't come here to stir up trouble. All along the way I've been asking what I feel are very relevant questions. The closest good response I got (for my money, anyway) was from Thoreau who replied,

"Jesus never made such promises"

to which I asked

"Well, then why do Christians believe he did and pray for protection every day?"

To which you reply,

"It's not for us to question the who, what, where, when, or why of how Jesus behaves."

To which I then ask,

"Well, then what's the point of praying?"

But if you're just going to tell us that Christians shouldn't reason why, they should just do and die, then I'm going to have to ask,

"Why should I die if I can't even know the reason why?"

And that's part of why I had to give up Christianity.

Now in brief partial recap I asked, "Why did these children have to die so horribly smeared all over an asphalt Interstate?" and Thoreau gave me the closest answer to something tangible: "Jesus doesn't protect people, at least he never promised he would." I recall even Mike 555 owning up to this. Good for him.

Nevertheless

99% of Christians are taught and believe Jesus WILL protect them from harm or else they wouldn't be praying to him for protection, true?

So another critical question arises from all this:

"If it's not in the Bible that Jesus will protect us, Psalm 91 and other similar passages notwithstanding, yet millions of Christians pray for Jesus to protect them, then HOW on earth did this belief arise???????

And more critically, "WHY did this belief arise????
No, I really have missed you thrill. .

It's a great few questions and I think rafius has got the right answer. I.e. one cannot take one statement that Jesus allegedly said and hang everything on it. Becoming mature sons is about the whole, and not just a few parts here and there that we have off to a T. And in that becoming, one example for me is that I've moved from a Trinitarian belief to non Trin. But according to what is written in the Bible (right or wrongly) Jesus, or at least his spirit appears to have a role in bringing people to the Father, and when he has done that the Father becomes All in All. That is where I am now, ...so Jesus is my brother, which technically makes me not a Christian. Who follows their brother right (?)

Why and how people have been taught to pray for safety, correctly restated by my wife's family - "Lord, don't let us die" is simply fear of death, and the work of a spirit of fear, which is riven through and at the root of doctrine and orthodoxy, a lot of which is BS, and yet trotted out verbatim from the pulpit every week, and with no anointing. We had it yesterday (now) morning at our church: "we know clearly that Jesus is coming back again" ....just have to let that stuff roll by without rising to it.

It seems to me that fear of death has a grip on you. That's something you could work on - read some NDE testimonials to decide if 'death' is a 'bad' experience...?

The point of prayer is 'your kingdom come, your will be done.'. Why that is interpreted as telling him and asking him for stuff when they don't know what is THE PRIORITY ON HIS LIST can only be the immaturity of people who are given to copying religious practices, parrot fashion. That is in large part why I don't 'pray' in the classic religious fashion anymore.

You have done well in moving away from religion, but it's going a bit far to say the father has no involvement at all. I mean, he may not have - I'm not saying he absolutely does - stuff that happens could just be 'everything running/determined by natural law' that he set running, but I think that's unlikely, I.e. IF he's omnipresent how can he not be involved. There has to be another mechanism at play with respect to connecting with the father, and for me that is faith; acknowledging that he is at work in those of faith.

Last edited by Age-enduring; Yesterday at 01:37 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 AM
 
3,776 posts, read 1,369,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
No, no one coaxed me to start the thread. I saw the news article and immediately all these questions flooded into my mind. I will address them as I go along. Proselytizing? Hardly. And what flaw would that be? The fact that Christians pray and such tragedies still ensue? That's what I'd like to explore here. Leave their religion? Listen, I have no qualms if people want to have conversations with themselves and pretend God is listening and responding. I have said before I believe prayer is excellent therapy for hurting souls who need to talk with God to work issues out. Talking to oneself helps bring things into better perspective from which they can then move toward a helpful resolution to their problems.

I have no doubt the children and their church leaders said a prayer before departing on this tragic trek. Likely the prayer went something like "Heavenly Father, whose glory fills the whole creation, and whose presence we find wherever we go, you said that if we ask for anything in Jesus name you would grant it. We ask in Jesus' name that you preserve us on this trip. Surround us with your loving care; protect us from every danger; and bring us safety to our journey's end; for we ask this through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and protector. Amen.Ē

So what went wrong? Did these children have unresolved sin in their lives? Was God's idea of safety different from theirs?



Wasn't a safe trip a good enough gift for God to give these children?

Were they disobedient? Was it the wrong time or not God's own "time" to ask for safety? Were they not asking in faith and so their prayer was ineffectual? Did God have something better prepared for them than being smeared on highway asphalt?

Believe it not these are common excuses given by apologists when confronted with unanswered prayer. I am simply trying to understand why, when Christian pray with all the prerequisites in place God or Jesus still doesn't see fit to answer them, especially a prayer for safety done in faith in Jesus and with no underlying impediments (I mean what sort of impediment can a 5 year old child have), they still get physically separated into several sections underneath a giant Mack truck. And for the record I do believe in God. And I have a story to tell how faith in God got damaged beyond repair if the conversation is fruitful and without rancor.

Please help me to understand why these children had to die the way they did.
I am not a Christian so I canít speak for them.

But IMO, you are doing the same as I posted earlier.

You think you have found a flaw or a short coming or a disconnect or a conflict in a certain aspect of Christian theology where a promise was supposedly made by a supposedly divine being but that promise does not seem to hold - in which case I donít see any beneficial debate to co-relate to OP.

OR you may think you have a theological question about Christianity but you couldnít find a satisfactory answer by the Christians. Which is a more natural and reasonable notion.

But then Aarach responded in post # 28 (which is also what I tend to agree as it seem to sit well with my logic) and you seem to agree too - so then the conversation moved to the question that if Gocards, Aarach and thrillo can figure it out, then why canít rest of the 1.5 billion Christians?

Perhaps their pastors are either more convincing of a speakers who have managed to turn a lie into a truth, and made them belief, or perhaps there is more meaning to the versus than what we as non-scholars of Bible are trying to make?

Either way you look at it - my stance on this subject is the same and I have said it many times before,

We should use our intelligence and our logic to do our own research and make our choices wisely.
And in the end, we will be responsible for our choices.



You, myself and Aarach (party a) did that and made the choice to NOT put our faith in those versus (even though we did not consult a Bible scholar to have those versus explained to us in more detail - something that we should have done) - and those pastors (party b) who decided to lure masses into falsehood, also made a choice - and their followers (party c) also made a choice to believe in their pastors without thinking along the same lines as you, I and Aarach did.

All three parties in this scenario are responsible for their choices.

Whom of us is right and who is wrong? We shall wait and we shall probably see.
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,052 posts, read 9,813,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
Why and how people have been taught to pray for safety, correctly restated by my wife's family - "Lord, don't let us die" is simply fear of death, ...
I am constantly amazed by the number of Christians who claim that, when they die, they are going to go to 'paradise', and yet, when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life here.v
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Old Yesterday, 07:59 AM
 
12,712 posts, read 13,303,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I am constantly amazed by the number of Christians who claim that, when they die, they are going to go to 'paradise', and yet, when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life here
So then you must also be constantly amazed by the number of atheists who claim that when they die it just goes dark, and yet when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life.
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Old Yesterday, 08:22 AM
 
15,353 posts, read 7,731,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I am constantly amazed by the number of Christians who claim that, when they die, they are going to go to 'paradise', and yet, when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life here.v
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
So then you must also be constantly amazed by the number of atheists who claim that when they die it just goes dark, and yet when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life.
Itís called the survival instinct for a reason.
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Anderson, IN
4,087 posts, read 1,206,690 times
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I lost a friend a couple days ago. It really shook me up with all the other crap going on. Damn if I know why God didn't keep him here. I miss him so much it isn't funny. We'd sit together and watch horror movies, I'd make him laugh with my MST3K inspired commentary. He had Stage 4 Emphysema. I don't know why sh-- like this happens, I wish I had an answer for you, but I'm not going to throw out meaningless pious sounding platitudes. I can't. I've lost my tolerance for ridiculous bullsh--. But I haven't lost my faith. Tell those you're close to how much you love and need them in your life. Life is so precious. And fragile. I wish I had answers. The best I can do is say "I don't know either" and hug you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
News article: "Fiery Head-On Crash Kills 5 Children [Christians] on Way To DisneyWorld"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-crash-n954726

Children dying in not news. Sadly, even Christian toddlers dying horribly mangled in accidents through no fault of their own is not news anymore. But it has to make Christians wonder deep down what kind of a savior they worship--a savior who once said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me" Who knew Jesus was speaking literally "Suffer pretty horribly and then die when you come unto me"

Many Christians have a tough time coming to terms with tragedies like these: little 4-year-old Christian girls abused and raped by their pedophile pastor fathers. Others who are raped and then strangled and dumped in a ditch. Always the question comes up, "Where was Jesus when all this was going down? Why...watching the show from a front-row seat, of course, and doing absolutely nothing to stop it, not even to the extent of just killing the child with a heart attack or something to relieve the child of the suffering. But apparently even that is too hard for Jesus to manage. Or maybe he simply doesn't care. Or maybe he doesn't even exist. That would be the most logical explanation.

But the excuse-making Christian apologists come up with has reached a new level of complete drivel. From "God's ways are mysterious. Who can know them" to "Protecting little Christian children would be showing favoritism toward them and God is not a respecter of persons" to "It would rob them of their free will". To choose between living or dying, I suppose the apologists mean. Of course when a Christian child is mangled in a horrific fiery crash and then dragged under an auto for 100 feet it does make one wonder that if Jesus truly wanted these children dead couldn't he have found a little gentler way of killing them? It's even more ironic when you read Psalm 91:



I have to laugh every time I read that. Jesus does a pretty good job of protecting his children, doesn't he?
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