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Old Yesterday, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,055 posts, read 9,816,746 times
Reputation: 2449

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
So then you must also be constantly amazed by the number of atheists who claim that when they die it just goes dark, and yet when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life.
No...not at all. Atheist think that this life is all there is and they don't want to leave it. See the difference?
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 AM
 
12,712 posts, read 13,303,286 times
Reputation: 9023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
No...not at all. Atheist think that this life is all there is and they don't want to leave it. See the difference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
It’s called the survival instinct for a reason.
therefore....nothing to be "amazed" about
unless someone fails to grasp really basic concepts. Raf's post falls into that category
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Old Yesterday, 10:43 AM
 
15,362 posts, read 7,734,586 times
Reputation: 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
therefore....nothing to be "amazed" about
unless someone fails to grasp really basic concepts. Raf's post falls into that category
I don't think it has anything to do with Raf not grasping basic concepts.

He is using hyperbole to make a point... He wonders why faith in an afterlife that is supposed to far surpass the tribulations of our life here doesn't somehow override the survival instinct. I, personally, don't think instincts are very easily overridden.
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Old Yesterday, 11:08 AM
Status: "A smidge querulous." (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
24,143 posts, read 12,489,617 times
Reputation: 11056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I don't think it has anything to do with Raf not grasping basic concepts.

He is using hyperbole to make a point... He wonders why faith in an afterlife that is supposed to far surpass the tribulations of our life here doesn't somehow override the survival instinct. I, personally, don't think instincts are very easily overridden.
That's for sure. You learn how powerful it is, and how suddenly it can kick in, when your next breath is denied.
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Old Yesterday, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,738 posts, read 9,315,068 times
Reputation: 18930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
So then you must also be constantly amazed by the number of atheists who claim that when they die it just goes dark, and yet when they think they are about to go, do everything to cling to life.
You must be in the mood to argue again, because the logic in that statement is very faulty.

Thinking of going to paradise would be a good reason to happily accept death.
Thinking of a total ending is not at all like paradise. Therefore the reaction would logically be very different.
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Old Yesterday, 11:41 AM
Status: "A smidge querulous." (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
24,143 posts, read 12,489,617 times
Reputation: 11056
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You must be in the mood to argue again, because the logic in that statement is very faulty.

Thinking of going to paradise would be a good reason to happily accept death.
Thinking of a total ending is not at all like paradise. Therefore the reaction would logically be very different.
Logic is not a religionist's strong suit.
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Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
 
10,413 posts, read 10,738,908 times
Reputation: 3150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
No, I really have missed you thrill. .

It's a great few questions and I think rafius has got the right answer. I.e. one cannot take one statement that Jesus allegedly said and hang everything on it. Becoming mature sons is about the whole, and not just a few parts here and there that we have off to a T. And in that becoming, one example for me is that I've moved from a Trinitarian belief to non Trin. But according to what is written in the Bible (right or wrongly) Jesus, or at least his spirit appears to have a role in bringing people to the Father, and when he has done that the Father becomes All in All. That is where I am now, ...so Jesus is my brother, which technically makes me not a Christian. Who follows their brother right (?)

Why and how people have been taught to pray for safety, correctly restated by my wife's family - "Lord, don't let us die" is simply fear of death, and the work of a spirit of fear, which is riven through and at the root of doctrine and orthodoxy, a lot of which is BS, and yet trotted out verbatim from the pulpit every week, and with no anointing. We had it yesterday (now) morning at our church: "we know clearly that Jesus is coming back again" ....just have to let that stuff roll by without rising to it.

It seems to me that fear of death has a grip on you. That's something you could work on - read some NDE testimonials to decide if 'death' is a 'bad' experience...?

The point of prayer is 'your kingdom come, your will be done.'. Why that is interpreted as telling him and asking him for stuff when they don't know what is THE PRIORITY ON HIS LIST can only be the immaturity of people who are given to copying religious practices, parrot fashion. That is in large part why I don't 'pray' in the classic religious fashion anymore.

You have done well in moving away from religion, but it's going a bit far to say the father has no involvement at all. I mean, he may not have - I'm not saying he absolutely does - stuff that happens could just be 'everything running/determined by natural law' that he set running, but I think that's unlikely, I.e. IF he's omnipresent how can he not be involved. There has to be another mechanism at play with respect to connecting with the father, and for me that is faith; acknowledging that he is at work in those of faith.
Well, then I apologize for my sarcasm, Age. I thought you were doing the same.

Quote:
But according to what is written in the Bible (right or wrongly)
The problem starts with this: fundamentalists' stubborn insistence that nothing written in the Bible is "wrongly". Everything is "right" i.e. inerrant, without contradictions, perfect. Fundamentalists are terrified that if they "own up" to the slightest degree that the Bible is imperfect they will have betrayed their faith in Jesus. It's a sad state of affairs when religious idealism and politics guides Christian thought rather than the truth and simple common sense. I applaud your ability to break free of this irrationality.

Quote:
It seems to me that fear of death has a grip on you.
I am not afraid of death, Age. But I am terrified of the method in which I die. Were I to die instantly and without warning and with no pain that would be ideal. But statistically 90% of us are going to die in some degree of misery and pain. The government is making this dire statistic even worse by their insane restriction on opiate medications for everybody, even cancer patients now. In case you and others weren't aware the DEA has defacto banned doctors from prescribing opiates long-term with threats of losing their licenses and prison. That for me makes dying from cancer or other debilitating wasting diseases intolerable. Personally I have decided that should such a fate befall me I will seek doctor assisted suicide in Switzerland or the Netherlands, which is legal there, as soon as possible.

Quote:
one cannot take one statement that Jesus allegedly said and hang everything on it. It's going a bit far to say the father has no involvement at all.
You're right. "Ask the Father for anything in my name and he will grant it" is not something Jesus would have promised. No compassionate rabbi would have because it is a flat-out deceptive lie.

You and a few other Christians in here are sounding a little more deistic these days. Not as much as me, I admit. For me God does not intervene in anybody's life to the slightest degree. It's all determined by natural laws which He has put in place to govern the world. This explains perfectly why hundreds of thousands of Christians get slaughtered on roadways and die other sundry horrible miserable deaths with the same degree of frequency as everybody else and not all the prayers in the world will affect this outcome. This is where we start to gain some traction in comprehending how and why Christians sincerely believe God will bail them out of trouble and so they pray earnestly for God to bail them out of trouble. And He won't.

In my last post I asked "Why did this belief originate when it's not in the Bible?" and "Why did this belief originate when it's not in the Bible?" I have my theories which I will state in my summary a bit further on in this thread.

But I think we can make great steps forward in Christian theology and defeat the fundamentalists in here who spread lies, deceit and obfuscation in trying to get people to believe things about God that are a priori not true. Admitting that God/Jesus don't protect us from harm and nowhere in the Bible does it say He does is taking a great step forward in letting Christianity evolve to fit with the realities we see all around us. And if the Bible DOES give the impression that God/Jesus protects us from harm and gives us all sorts of goodies in this life it's because of verses like Matthew 7:11

Quote:
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
which I think were deliberately inserted into the gospel texts by unscrupulous churchmen to make Christianity more appealing to pagans who they were desperately trying to convert in order to grow their numbers. It's no secret that churchmen lie all the time to benefit their own selfish desires. After all, wasn't it the Bishop of Caesarea in his volume Evangelical Preparation who said,

"How well it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived."

No surprises there.
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Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM
 
Location: USA
3,286 posts, read 1,135,183 times
Reputation: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
This is the same old nonsense we've already discussed many times before on this forum.

God/Jesus never said or ever indicated that he would run to our rescue, save us from the flying bullet, etc. Anyone saying otherwise is completely ignorant of what the Bible says (the usual case), or wants to lie about Judaism and Christianity.

We are born to die. None of us can escape it. Life is imperfect. We all know that, and the Bible speaks to that.

The ideal for Christians and non-believers alike is to make the most of everyday. Jesus even talks about not worrying about tomorrow, and focusing on today. There are scriptures along those lines.

Beyond all of that, Jesus didn't come to "do things for us". He lived as an example, as a teacher. His life can be modeled or not, but that's up to each person. People are stupidly trying to change him into a bodyguard.
In what way is a God who refuses to "run to (your) rescue" at your moment of extreme need any different from a God who never existed to begin with?
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Old Yesterday, 01:12 PM
 
Location: USA
3,286 posts, read 1,135,183 times
Reputation: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlueSky_ View Post
But hey! Last month that one little girl's cancer "miraculously" vanished.
Rejoice for the recovery of that little girl. I hope that will be of some comfort to the families of the thousands of cancer victims who died from the condition.
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Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
 
Location: USA
3,286 posts, read 1,135,183 times
Reputation: 959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
What if neither is the case?

Maybe we should stop playing the guessing game, and start focusing on living our lives. We can't know the mind of God, and what events and happenings are connected with him or not. Christians especially should stop foolishly guessing or assuming.

There's no law in the universe that indicates that we have to have explain everything and understand everything. It's quite the contrary. Might as well recognize that and leave those as unknowns.
Exactly! If no God exists then neither is the case. And the believers who refuse to allow their children to have modern medical treatments based on their faith that an imaginary God will protect the children, are no better than childlike fools who bear the ultimate responsibility for the deaths of their own children.
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