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Old 01-09-2019, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Yeah, yeah right. You're taking advantage of the lack of knowledge of Zoroastrianism in the US by promoting more bogus "data".

According to Zoroaster, people are redeemed by 'good' thoughts, good words, and good actions, not by believing in any person or figure. Your alleged thread of connection doesn't exist.

Can't resist attacking Christians by any means, huh?
You really know how to hurt a skeptic's feelings, Thoreau.

Well, okay if you don't believe me, then read this:

Quote:
The history of Zoroastrianism extends back approximately 3,500 years to ancient Persia.
Now you WILL admit that Christianity doesn't extend back 3,500 years, I hope, Thoreau.

According to Zoroastrianism:

Quote:
the path of evil causes unhappiness in life and eventually a place in Hell where he will experience torment and suffering.
With me so far?

Quote:
The [Zoroastrian] Book of Arda Viraf describes the Zoroastrian Hell as a place of fire with a terrible stench. Further description divides this Hell into different regions. In another reference in the book translated as Religious Judgments, the deepest pit of Hell is described as a place so dark that it is as if the people sent there are blind.
Does the last one sound familiar? It should. Jude stole it from the Zoroastrians when he wrote in his epistle

Quote:
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority he has kept in darkness Jude 1:6
Zoroastrianism:

Quote:
The demons that occupy Hell enforce the torments and rule over the people there.
Christianity:

Quote:
The demons that occupy Hell enforce the torments and rule over the people there.
Bill Weiss, Christian apologist in his 23 Minutes in Hell writes:

Quote:
One Demon just grabbed me and picked me up, and threw me into the wall. That was how strong he was. And threw me into the wall, and every bone in my body just broke. And I felt pain! I just lay on the floor crying out for mercy, but these creatures don't have any mercy at all, absolutely no mercy.
So in simple terms that even you can understand:

*Zoroastrians develop concept of burning in fire in hell 1500 years before Christian do

*Christians steal the idea and incorporate it into their teachings circa Augustine 400CE. Eternal torment in hell persists in Christianity right up to this very moment as noted in Bill Weiss' trash fantasy novel, 23 Minutes in Hell

* Zoroastrian and Christian concepts of torment in fiery hell identical or nearly identical, given evolution of theology to fit with the times and needs of the Church.

I truly hope that wasn't so complex that it went right over your head, Thoreau.

https://classroom.synonym.com/belief...-12085986.html

Bill Wiese 23 minutes in Hell

Last edited by thrillobyte; 01-09-2019 at 03:07 PM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:33 PM
Status: "Freedom-Diversity-Unity" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Better left unsaid
4,236 posts, read 1,654,648 times
Reputation: 6003
Yep, Zoro preceeded Christianity. Yes, they believed in a hades / demonic realm.

No; 'bad' decisions, bad words, and bad actions are what would get them there; not belief or disbelief in anyone. If someone lived in an evil manner (in the Zoroastrianism worldview), the person simply continued on the same path and course into death/afterlife that he/she lived on Earth.

You're the one creating and injecting the bogus idea of hellfire preaching in Zoroastrianism, and then using that fiction to attack Christianity. You'll obviously use any tactic that pops up in front of you, no matter how nonsensical, and then defend it tooth and nail.

I do my own research with journals and scholarly publications, firmly in print, with references. No online fodder for me. You seem more than satisfied with fast-food Internet dribblings thrown together. Garbage in, garbage out. Tainted information in, diarrheic statements out.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 01-09-2019 at 02:55 PM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:45 PM
 
Location: USA
3,298 posts, read 1,139,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Zoroaster (Zarathustra) proclaimed the existence of only one God of all creation to the Persian people, whom Zoroaster called Ahura Mazda (Lord Wise) in the 3rd century BC. The Jews were henothestic in the 3rd century BC, worshiping their tribal God YHWH, but acknowledging and accepting the existence of other Gods. After the fall of Babylon to the Persian king Cyrus the Great, who worshiped Ahura Mazda, in 539 BCE, Cyrus gave the captive Jews their freedom. After the Babylonian captivity the Jews had become dedicated monotheists.

"Between the two extremes of animistic polytheism and absolute monotheism there is an intermediate stage of `henotheism'--that is, the recognition by each tribe of a peculiar divinity, its patron and the guardian of its destiny, whose worship was often dovetailed with the cult of the local deities personifying the forces of nature. (History of the Jews, pp.99-100, by Simon Dubnov). **Note: Simon Dubnov, a Russian Jew who died in 1941 is widely considered to be the leading Jewish historian of the Twentieth Century).

Wikipedia
Canaanite religion and early Judaism
Rabbinical Judaism as it developed in Late Antiquity is emphatically monotheistic, but its predecessor, the various schools of Hellenistic Judaism and Second Temple Judaism, [b]and especially the cult of YHWH as it was practiced in ancient Israel and Judah during the 8th and 7th centuries BC, have been described as henotheistic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:59 PM
 
20,712 posts, read 15,955,173 times
Reputation: 7907
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Zoroastrians originated the concept of eternal punishment in a fiery pit centuries before Christianity came along. Christianity stole the idea of eternal torment from the Zoroastrians and others because it was a very effective tool to bludgeon pagans into accepting Jesus. "Accept Jesus or burn in torment forever!" the churchmen screamed at the pagans. Very effective. And very deceptive.



Religion and Spirituality: Hell: Origins of an Idea
Actually, while the religion of Zoroastrianism predates the birth of Christianity, the oldest extant Zoroastrian manuscripts date to the 10th century AD which is long after the birth of Christianity. What this means is that we have no way of knowing what Zoroastrianism originally taught and that any borrowing between Christianity and Zoroastrianism may very well be on the part of Zoroastrianism borrowing from Christianity due to Christianity's popularity, rather than Christianity borrowing or copying from Zoroastrianism.
Manuscripts
A manuscript is a handwritten book. Manuscripts were the way in which books were produced before the invention of printing. Remnants of earliest extant (existing) Avestan manuscript date back to the 10 century CE, while the bulk of the complete manuscripts in libraries today, were written in the 18th century CE. Avestan books were not produced for use in a liturgy. Rather, the Avestan manuscript served to transmit the sacred text. The portion of the Avesta used in a religious ceremony was and is recited by a priest from memory. [Bolding mine]

https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zo...anuscripts.htm



This is a copy of the Zoroastrian Videvdad, or Vendidad as it is also known, a lawbook
containing the rules for dealing with pollution and crime. It is one of the oldest existing
Zoroastrian manuscripts, copied in 1323
in Nawsari, Gujarat, by the scribe Mihraban
Kaykhusraw. In this manuscript, each sentence is given first in the original Avestan (Old
Iranian) language, and then in Pahlavi (Middle Persian), the language of Sasanian Iran (c.
224651 AD). [Bolding mine]

https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/videvdad
Of course, the fact that the oldest surviving Zoroastrian manuscripts post-date the beginnings of Christianity which means that we can't know what Zoroastrianism actually taught prior to the emergence of Christianity doesn't deter the skeptics from accusing without any actual verifiable proof that Christianity borrowed from Zoroastrianism.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:03 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,316 posts, read 4,440,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
The Magi as in the three wise men?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

I'm guessing that once Alexander the Great conquered Persia, Zoroastrianism began to fall apart, and a strict monotheism was disfavored for a free syncretic polytheism.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:07 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,316 posts, read 4,440,392 times
Reputation: 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Actually, while the religion of Zoroastrianism predates the birth of Christianity, the oldest extant Zoroastrian manuscripts date to the 10th century AD which is long after the birth of Christianity. .
And there is no text from an older non-Zoroastrian source describing the religion? Doubtful, the influence of the Persian empires was strong until their conquests (during which I'm sure were rebirths).
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:11 PM
 
20,712 posts, read 15,955,173 times
Reputation: 7907
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
And there is no text from an older non-Zoroastrian source describing the religion? Doubtful, the influence of the Persian empires was strong until their conquests (during which I'm sure were rebirths).
If there are texts from an older non-Zoroastrian source describing the religion and any similarities between it and Christianity you would have to produce it. And you would have to demonstrate that that non-Zoroastrian text itself actually pre-dated Christianity.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-09-2019 at 03:23 PM..
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:13 PM
 
10,430 posts, read 10,750,096 times
Reputation: 3155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Yep, Zoro preceeded Christianity. Yes, they believed in a hades / demonic realm.

No; 'bad' decisions, bad words, and bad actions are what would get them there; not belief or disbelief in anyone. If someone lived in an evil manner (in the Zoroastrianism worldview), the person simply continued on the same path and course into death/afterlife that he/she lived on Earth.

You're the one creating and injecting the bogus idea of hellfire preaching in Zoroastrianism, and then using that fiction to attack Christianity. You'll obviously use any tactic that pops up in front of you, no matter how nonsensical, and then defend it tooth and nail.

I do my own research with journals and scholarly publications, firmly in print, with references. No online fodder for me. You seem more than satisfied with fast-food Internet dribblings thrown together. Garbage in, garbage out. Tainted information in, diarrheic statements out.
Oof! Now you've really hurt my feelings, Thoreau. You obviously skipped the part where I said Christianity evolved the theology to fit prevailing needs.
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Old 01-09-2019, 04:11 PM
 
Location: US
26,907 posts, read 14,293,409 times
Reputation: 1645
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
The Magi as in the three wise men?
Yup....
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:30 PM
 
Location: USA
3,298 posts, read 1,139,315 times
Reputation: 960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If there are texts from an older non-Zoroastrian source describing the religion and any similarities between it and Christianity you would have to produce it. And you would have to demonstrate that that non-Zoroastrian text itself actually pre-dated Christianity.
The oldest complete copies of Gospel Mark are the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus dating from the 4th century. Are you suggesting that this renders any first century connection to Christianity suspect?

Wikipedia
Codex Sinaiticus
The codex is an Alexandrian text-type manuscript written in uncial letters on parchment in the 4th century. Scholarship considers the Codex Sinaiticus to be one of the best Greek texts of the New Testament,[2] along with the Codex Vaticanus. Until Constantin von Tischendorf's discovery of the Sinaiticus text, the Codex Vaticanus was unrivaled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus
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