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Old 01-15-2019, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,505 posts, read 10,308,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Faith without reason vs Faith without evidence --- What’s the difference?
"Faith without reason or evidence" is often what non-believers accuse Christians of believing. Any professing Christian who says they have no reason or evidence for their faith, most likely has no faith ... and is not truly a Christian.

The 'reason' for my faith is Jesus Christ and the Gospel truth of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone. "I know in whom I have believed!" One 'evidence' of my faith is a life changed from within ... a hope, confidence, truth, peace, joy, love, patience, self control, etc. -- growing out of my faith and empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

(No individual can manifest and empower such changes by the power of their own flesh alone; like trying to win an arm-wrestling competition between one's own arms).
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
5,898 posts, read 5,720,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post

(No individual can manifest and empower such changes by the power of their own flesh alone; like trying to win an arm-wrestling competition between one's own arms).
Sez who? The other guy you are arm wrestling with??
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,760 posts, read 7,239,554 times
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Some people STILL don’t get the difference between “evidence” and “proof”.....go figure.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:42 PM
Status: "Being." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
24,339 posts, read 12,581,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Some people STILL don’t get the difference between “evidence” and “proof”.....go figure.
Crazy, ain't it?

Faith without evidence is maxed-out wishful thinking.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,149 posts, read 9,856,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Not true. I have faith in a creator, tho I haven’t seen such physically. I believe the evidence points to a creator, therefore I have faith there is one.
If you have evidence, why do you have faith? If you have evidence then faith is obsolete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The 'reason' for my faith is Jesus Christ and the Gospel truth of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone.
That should be...'The 'reason' for my faith is Jesus Christ and the Gospel claim of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone.'
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Old 01-16-2019, 04:07 AM
 
7,961 posts, read 6,814,593 times
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Faith with out reason is the true faith that is authored By the Living God , as reason come through the adversary spirit not of the Living God ........ Faith with out evidence is the leader of the bind who need to believe, as God can prove Himself , or remain blind and be lost to the Living God
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Old 01-16-2019, 04:12 AM
 
Location: Florida
18,815 posts, read 19,032,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
"Faith without reason or evidence" is often what non-believers accuse Christians of believing. Any professing Christian who says they have no reason or evidence for their faith, most likely has no faith ... and is not truly a Christian.

The 'reason' for my faith is Jesus Christ and the Gospel truth of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone. "I know in whom I have believed!" One 'evidence' of my faith is a life changed from within ... a hope, confidence, truth, peace, joy, love, patience, self control, etc. -- growing out of my faith and empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

(No individual can manifest and empower such changes by the power of their own flesh alone; like trying to win an arm-wrestling competition between one's own arms).
You mean you couldn't. Don't presume to speak for anybody ese.
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Old 01-16-2019, 04:55 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,776 posts, read 8,364,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Some people STILL don’t get the difference between “evidence” and “proof”.....go figure.
Some people still don't get the difference between "reason" and "rationalization", either.

Anyway... a couple of observations, first about "evidence":

There is no evidence backing up Christianity. It is actually a matter of pride for even some humble Christians that they have faith without evidence. There is evidence that some things in the Christian Bible happened, but no evidence of the divine nature of the central tenets of Christianity, itself -- tenets that actually didn't even have primacy among Christians until centuries after Jesus. If there is any "evidence" in this context, it is evidence that at least some of these central tenets were fabricated, after-the-fact, and by those who weren't ever in Jesus' presence.

Similarly, there is no "evidence" of a creator. Again, the matter of debate is whether there is a "reason"-able argument defending the belief in a creator. Similarly, the claim that "a life changed" is "evidence" of a faith is a logical fallacy, in the absence of evidence that that kind of life change doesn't generally happen absent that faith. It might be a "reason" why someone believes in a faith. Similarly, while "a life changed" and "hope, confidence, truth, peace, joy, love, patience, self control, etc. -- growing out of my faith" can be "reasons" for faith, they're not "evidence".

In a nutshell, there is no evidence backing up Christianity or any faith: What is a matter of debate is whether there is reason (as opposed to just rationalization) for the faith. That is about which reasonable people disagree.

Next, about "reason":

The claim that "Jesus Christ and the Gospel truth of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone" is "reason" for faith is circular reasoning, another logical fallacy. Reason, by definition, is logical. That word means something specific.

But something more subtle is going on here:

The extent to which faith abuses words in this manner is significant in itself. For centuries, faith without evidence or reason was its own reward. Even the justifying of scripture (providing arguments of reason for them) was itself heresy and persecuted as such specifically because it implied that scripture was subject to the crucible of reason. Faith was that which was "worthy". Fast forward into the modern age, where such assaults against human intelligence are no longer deemed acceptable. Faith has no choice but to react by way of seeking to co-opt the words that indicate to people these days that something is "worthy", words like "evidence" and "reason".

And it is also interesting that the forces in society promoting reactionaryism are, as part of that, promoting anti-intellectualism ... but that's another thread I suppose.

Last edited by bUU; 01-16-2019 at 05:31 AM..
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Old 01-16-2019, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,149 posts, read 9,856,740 times
Reputation: 2458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Some people still don't get the difference between "reason" and "rationalization", either.

Anyway... a couple of observations, first about "evidence":

There is no evidence backing up Christianity. It is actually a matter of pride for even some humble Christians that they have faith without evidence. There is evidence that some things in the Christian Bible happened, but no evidence of the divine nature of the central tenets of Christianity, itself -- tenets that actually didn't even have primacy among Christians until centuries after Jesus. If there is any "evidence" in this context, it is evidence that at least some of these central tenets were fabricated, after-the-fact, and by those who weren't ever in Jesus' presence.

Similarly, there is no "evidence" of a creator. Again, the matter of debate is whether there is a "reason"-able argument defending the belief in a creator. Similarly, the claim that "a life changed" is "evidence" of a faith is a logical fallacy, in the absence of evidence that that kind of life change doesn't generally happen absent that faith. It might be a "reason" why someone believes in a faith. Similarly, while "a life changed" and "hope, confidence, truth, peace, joy, love, patience, self control, etc. -- growing out of my faith" can be "reasons" for faith, they're not "evidence".

In a nutshell, there is no evidence backing up Christianity or any faith: What is a matter of debate is whether there is reason (as opposed to just rationalization) for the faith. That is about which reasonable people disagree.

Next, about "reason":

The claim that "Jesus Christ and the Gospel truth of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone" is "reason" for faith is circular reasoning, another logical fallacy. Reason, by definition, is logical. That word means something specific.

But something more subtle is going on here:

The extent to which faith abuses words in this manner is significant in itself. For centuries, faith without evidence or reason was its own reward. Even the justifying of scripture (providing arguments of reason for them) was itself heresy and persecuted as such specifically because it implied that scripture was subject to the crucible of reason. Faith was that which was "worthy". Fast forward into the modern age, where such assaults against human intelligence are no longer deemed acceptable. Faith has no choice but to react by way of seeking to co-opt the words that indicate to people these days that something is "worthy", words like "evidence" and "reason".

And it is also interesting that the forces in society promoting reactionaryism are, as part of that, promoting anti-intellectualism ... but that's another thread I suppose.
Can I just tweak that Bro! There is, in fact, tons of evidence for Christianity AND for a creator - if you believe in Christianity and a creator... just as there is tons of evidence for Santa Claus, fairies and leprechauns - if you believe in Santa Claus, fairies and leprechauns. The problem is that such evidence is not verifiable and evidence that cannot be verified is absolutely useless - as evidence.
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Old 01-16-2019, 08:17 AM
 
169 posts, read 28,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
The 'reason' for my faith is Jesus Christ and the Gospel truth of Salvation by grace through faith in Him alone. "I know in whom I have believed!" One 'evidence' of my faith is a life changed from within ... a hope, confidence, truth, peace, joy, love, patience, self control, etc. -- growing out of my faith and empowered by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Rafius was responding to a different post, but it serves equally well here, and I couldn't say it any better myself.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
There is, in fact, tons of evidence for Christianity AND for a creator - if you believe in Christianity and a creator... just as there is tons of evidence for Santa Claus, fairies and leprechauns - if you believe in Santa Claus, fairies and leprechauns. The problem is that such evidence is not verifiable and evidence that cannot be verified is absolutely useless - as evidence.
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