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Old 01-15-2019, 01:21 AM
 
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Whatís the difference?
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:17 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,776 posts, read 8,364,072 times
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All faith is "without evidence" by definition. You cannot "have faith" in something for which there is evidence that is unequivocally true. Rather, in that context what you "have" is "knowledge".

The matter of "reason" in faith became notably significant in the 18th Century. President John Adams is said to have strove for a religion based on a "common sense sort of reasonableness". The man who became the leading minister of that faith in the early 19th Century, William Ellery Channing, preached about "revelation through reason" rather than accepting whatever is written in scripture. He went as far as to dismiss the prevailing religious trend of the day toward Calvinism by saying, 'It is plain that a doctrine that contradicts our best ideas of goodness and justice, cannot come from the just and good God, or be a true representation of his character.'

Decades later, that faith featured people who deliberately sought to establish a reasonable basis for religion, such as Thoreau, who sought that foundation in the natural world, and Emerson, who sought that foundation by coming close to acknowledging that God was the totality of physical existence. Decades after that, that faith evolved further into one that had no place for "faith without reason", going as far as building reason into the tenets of the faith.

Today that translates into both a recognition that spiritual and moral wisdom has no single source, and that all sources of such wisdom must be continually subjected to the crucible of reason. In other words, "Because this book says so," or, "because this person said so," is not only an invalid basis for any claim, putting such explanations forward as basis for a claim is deemed a logical fallacy (argumentum ab auctoritate).

While there were only a couple of faiths that started down that path two hundred years ago (including the faiths that became my faith, Unitarian Universalism), many faiths are heading in this direction, by way of splintering off liberal arms. Many Reform Jewish congregations hold to John Adams' "common sense sort of reasonableness" ethic, as do some liberal Christian churches. As society-in-general becomes less tolerant of "faith without reason", faith evolves to comply.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:07 AM
 
11,337 posts, read 4,414,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
What’s the difference?
what's diference between a step stool, 6'ft ladder, 10' ladder, and a cherry picker (bucket truck)?

before we use them, what kinds of information are we processing?

when is it clear we have chosen the wrong tool?
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:17 AM
 
9,309 posts, read 12,189,459 times
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Neither type is possible.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,231 posts, read 581,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Whatís the difference?
How are you using 'reason', as a verb (to reason) or a noun (a reason)?
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,181 posts, read 7,852,977 times
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There may be a subtle difference, but does it really matter?

Faith without X seems to be the same thing as faith alone, and faith alone is simply a bad reason for believing something.

Christians and some others seem to advance faith as a virtuous thing, whereas in reality it is more of a negative.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:57 AM
 
169 posts, read 28,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
All faith is "without evidence" by definition. You cannot "have faith" in something for which there is evidence that is unequivocally true. Rather, in that context what you "have" is "knowledge".
[TRUNCATED...]
Nice post.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:04 AM
 
169 posts, read 28,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
what's diference between a step stool, 6'ft ladder, 10' ladder, and a cherry picker (bucket truck)?

before we use them, what kinds of information are we processing?

when is it clear we have chosen the wrong tool?
A good start, but you left out one key option, to make this a relevant analogy. FIFY.....

"What's the difference between a step stool, 6'ft ladder, 10' ladder, and a cherry picker (bucket truck)... and a conceptual/theoretical ladder, which cannot be seen or touched or tested or measured or climbed in the same way by more than one person?"
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:22 AM
 
10,451 posts, read 10,778,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
What’s the difference?
Faith without evidence IS faith without reason, so in a sense they are synonymous.

Christians, for example have no evidence their faith is real therefore they must rely on faith without reason i.e. their faith is built on nothing except 2000-year-old words which are like shifting beach sand.

And it's that way for all religions (faiths).
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:46 AM
Status: "Iím a Disney travel agent." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,596 posts, read 8,461,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Faith without evidence IS faith without reason, so in a sense they are synonymous.

Christians, for example have no evidence their faith is real therefore they must rely on faith without reason i.e. their faith is built on nothing except 2000-year-old words which are like shifting beach sand.

And it's that way for all religions (faiths).
Not true. I have faith in a creator, tho I haven’t seen such physically. I believe the evidence points to a creator, therefore I have faith there is one.
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