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Old 01-24-2019, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,970 posts, read 9,428,119 times
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Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
I did not specifically mention Christians- I barely know anything about it, or what or why it came to be. My gripe is with the fact that all religions tell you to be "so and so", but as one grows older they realize(if they do) that to achieve success or power in this lifetime(which is all we know as certified by science) one must be amoral. Should I commit all so called "sins" to get ahead in life? Because all the great men mostly did. T
I don't believe "all" religions do tell you to be "so and so".
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
I am a Hindu though a non believer/practiser, and agnostic in my daily existence. My problem with religion- and this adresses every religion, in all of human civilization, is that it expects only the middle class to be moralistic.

I am reading biographies on American Presidents- Reagan, Kennedy and from the older days of Lincoln and Jefferson and what I have found is that all the qualities of amorality- backstabbing, greed, lust, anger- pretty much the "dark side" is what makes these individuals get to where they did-either directly(themselves) or indirectly(their administration and cabinet members). This rule I feel applies to all leaders in all of human civilization. The great Napoleon Bonaparte said: "In Italy I realized I was a superior being and conceived the ambition of performing great things, which hitherto had filled my thoughts only as a fantastic dream". His biographer states: He was an artist, a poet of action, for whom France, Europe and a mankind were but instruments. He had charisma, he could move men to obedience, to loyalty and to heroic acts. He was also quite arrogant -- he manipulated people at will. "A man like me," he once said, "troubles himself little about the lives of a million men."

To get on top is a game and power struggle. Darwin's "survival of the fittest" applies to the wild but also to this society.

Now onto wealth: All the richest men in all of time have greed and avarice as traits embedded in them. Rockfeller's biography says “his good side was every bit as good as his bad side was bad.” I study men in my nation- the rich billionaires, and they all have, at best a good(moral)/bad (amoral) personality, or they are all out on the dark side in personal characteristics, principles and ethos. Sure they were determined and you could even use the term "genius" for their foresight that they possesed and no one around them did, and indeed many of these rich wealthy men, especially in western society have given back to society. But the more I read on their path to success- their early days and the more I see strong convictions but amoral ethics.

So basically the religious folks(middle class) are "serving" the very people they despise(bankers, narcissistic movie stars and the people of the government- especially the people of the govenrment, who they elect every few years hoping for things to get better). I read a Rush Limbaughand and Thomas Sowell discussion a few months ago where one of them said that things always seemed bad in every era in America such as the 30s or 40s and yet people keep electing the same amoral people knowingly. This is true for most democracies. A proud christian patriot probably knows that his Government is scam and the leaders are all pretty much scamsters. In fact when I talk to older people I have heard so many of them say never trust the politicians, or they're all paid for.

My opinion is also this: One has to be of this nature if they have to get into politics or any competition of any sort. It happened in Ancient Rome and it happens today. At the top with money and power involved how many truly great individuals with "ethos and principles"- traits that most religions obsesses over such as honesty, or justice have ever come to be? Dig in and even Bill Gates has his offshoring profits through a tiny Puerto Rico office that alone saved Microsoft $4m a day in taxes(got it off a site).

In my office experiences I have observed narcissists and even psychopaths get the top posts. I have observed the hypocrisy in every system. Put it simply: if a person wishes to be something in life he/she must possess some amoral traits. And yet Christianity or Hinduism or Islam or any religion orders a man to be pious.

I hope you get my perspective. Everyone asks religious people to prove God, show some evidence and the debates rage on. I don't care about any of that. As an agnostic I feel that there can be a higher supreme power just as likely as we are atoms and space particles created by accident. I don't question that aspect of faith. But it is the notion that the religious people must somehow be virtous and follow the principles and ethos, and yet the people they vote for or the people who are successful(wealth) never follow those and yet none of the billions of religious thinking people question this. They just trudge along. The poor and homeless are too busy looking for shelter or food to think about faith or ethos and the wealthy and the powerful use everyone around them, they network and form alliances. It is the middle class- the religious, devout hardworking man of principle who is used and forgotten- and these people are followers of God.

Do you think the social problem you observe would not exist if there was no religion?
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:27 PM
 
460 posts, read 686,409 times
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Do you think the social problem you observe would not exist if there was no religion?
I don't think so my dear friend. I honestly don't think so- religion pushes man into submission. But it is just my opinion.

I beleieve that all the problems plaguing western civilization- which is, in my opinion the greatest of all civilizations, would not exist if Westerners weren't so meek. I am basing this on my observation in Europe and the US. Most Christians are God fearing which automatically renders them to the category of the sheeple.

I was once a liberal- but now, once I immigrate to America and go to Hollywood I will make my own movies and thrust my viewpoint through my art. And while wr are on this topic- Every American of any common sense should be a liberetarian.
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:43 PM
 
460 posts, read 686,409 times
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't believe "all" religions do tell you to be "so and so".
I do.
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:48 PM
 
460 posts, read 686,409 times
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Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
I don't see your suggested and implied rule that to be successful automatically requires being amoral and committing "sins". Being honest in the workplace can lead to being successful. Keeping from killing people on the road is being successful(!) Helping neighbors with genuine friendship and support is being successful. Living a life with integrity and peace can be considered success.

Just because some might achieve rank, position, status, and wealth through troubling ways, doesn't mean that they won't suffer in some way, at some point. None of us can answer that conclusively, though many believe there will be punishment and/or karma, if you wish.

In the end, we can only control our lives. Even if the world is f-ed up, that doesn't take us off the hook. Why be obsessed and tripped up by what others do? Humanity will never make complete sense. Live your life, while you can. You might be gone tomorrow.
Hmm. You have valid points. Very valid points. But I refuse to abide in an unjustified world, sir. But I appreciate your answer and perspective. I have been hurt, sexually abused, pushed around- and I want revenge. HAV A NICE DAY
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,970 posts, read 9,428,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
Hmm. You have valid points. Very valid points. But I refuse to abide in an unjustified world, sir. But I appreciate your answer and perspective. I have been hurt, sexually abused, pushed around- and I want revenge. HAV A NICE DAY
Ah, the sign of a probably not very objective situation.
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:49 PM
 
460 posts, read 686,409 times
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Ah, the sign of a probably not very objective situation.
Probably. But I have my reasons to trust my instincts. All these years I trusted others. Have a nice day
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:37 AM
 
3,868 posts, read 1,404,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post

I beleieve that all the problems plaguing western civilization- which is, in my opinion the greatest of all civilizations, would not exist if Westerners weren't so meek. I am basing this on my observation in Europe and the US. Most Christians are God fearing which automatically renders them to the category of the sheeple.

I was once a liberal- but now, once I immigrate to America and go to Hollywood I will make my own movies and thrust my viewpoint through my art. And while wr are on this topic- Every American of any common sense should be a liberetarian.
Religion makes men submissive and turns them into sheeple. And you learned this after arriving into USA from India. And now you are on your way to produce Hollywood movies.
wow! Sounds like it’s coming straight from a Shah Rukh Khan’s movie plot.


hmmmm - so let’s take South America which is part of the “western world” - and then go to Honduras. A country littered with Churches.

https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-co...ry?id=47135328

And if religion turns people into sheeple then how do you explain this man?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mfnTl_Fwvbo
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Old 01-25-2019, 09:07 AM
Status: "Freedom - Diversity - Unity" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Better left unsaid
4,353 posts, read 1,701,990 times
Reputation: 6159
No one forces another to "have" religion, or believe anything. If you want to believe and follow a system of beliefs, it is you doing that. Also, no one else controls your trust; that is something you regulate. If you got burned, the fault ultimately traces back to you.

We never have an excuse to let our guard down, and not keep our eyes open. It doesn't matter who we're dealing with (church people, doctors, lawyers, mechanics, charity organizations, etc.)

Instead of singling out religion, look at the much larger roots of the problem. Instead of focusing narrow and seeing little, focus large/wide and see much.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 01-25-2019 at 10:12 AM..
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,970 posts, read 9,428,119 times
Reputation: 19115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
No one forces another to "have" religion, or believe anything. If you want to believe and follow a system of beliefs, it is you doing that. Also, no one else controls your trust; that is something you regulate. If you got burned, the fault ultimately traces back to you.

We never have an excuse to let our guard down, and not keep our eyes open. It doesn't matter who we're dealing with (church people, doctors, lawyers, mechanics, charity organizations, etc.)

Instead of singling out religion, look at the much larger roots of the problem. Instead of focusing narrow and seeing little, focus large/wide and see much.
No one...at least not anymore...in this country...forces anyone to "have" religion. But religion sure gets into the guilt trip.
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