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Old Yesterday, 09:41 AM
 
460 posts, read 684,969 times
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I am a Hindu though a non believer/practiser, and agnostic in my daily existence. My problem with religion- and this adresses every religion, in all of human civilization, is that it expects only the middle class to be moralistic.

I am reading biographies on American Presidents- Reagan, Kennedy and from the older days of Lincoln and Jefferson and what I have found is that all the qualities of amorality- backstabbing, greed, lust, anger- pretty much the "dark side" is what makes these individuals get to where they did-either directly(themselves) or indirectly(their administration and cabinet members). This rule I feel applies to all leaders in all of human civilization. The great Napoleon Bonaparte said: "In Italy I realized I was a superior being and conceived the ambition of performing great things, which hitherto had filled my thoughts only as a fantastic dream". His biographer states: He was an artist, a poet of action, for whom France, Europe and a mankind were but instruments. He had charisma, he could move men to obedience, to loyalty and to heroic acts. He was also quite arrogant -- he manipulated people at will. "A man like me," he once said, "troubles himself little about the lives of a million men."

To get on top is a game and power struggle. Darwin's "survival of the fittest" applies to the wild but also to this society.

Now onto wealth: All the richest men in all of time have greed and avarice as traits embedded in them. Rockfeller's biography says “his good side was every bit as good as his bad side was bad.” I study men in my nation- the rich billionaires, and they all have, at best a good(moral)/bad (amoral) personality, or they are all out on the dark side in personal characteristics, principles and ethos. Sure they were determined and you could even use the term "genius" for their foresight that they possesed and no one around them did, and indeed many of these rich wealthy men, especially in western society have given back to society. But the more I read on their path to success- their early days and the more I see strong convictions but amoral ethics.

So basically the religious folks(middle class) are "serving" the very people they despise(bankers, narcissistic movie stars and the people of the government- especially the people of the govenrment, who they elect every few years hoping for things to get better). I read a Rush Limbaughand and Thomas Sowell discussion a few months ago where one of them said that things always seemed bad in every era in America such as the 30s or 40s and yet people keep electing the same amoral people knowingly. This is true for most democracies. A proud christian patriot probably knows that his Government is scam and the leaders are all pretty much scamsters. In fact when I talk to older people I have heard so many of them say never trust the politicians, or they're all paid for.

My opinion is also this: One has to be of this nature if they have to get into politics or any competition of any sort. It happened in Ancient Rome and it happens today. At the top with money and power involved how many truly great individuals with "ethos and principles"- traits that most religions obsesses over such as honesty, or justice have ever come to be? Dig in and even Bill Gates has his offshoring profits through a tiny Puerto Rico office that alone saved Microsoft $4m a day in taxes(got it off a site).

In my office experiences I have observed narcissists and even psychopaths get the top posts. I have observed the hypocrisy in every system. Put it simply: if a person wishes to be something in life he/she must possess some amoral traits. And yet Christianity or Hinduism or Islam or any religion orders a man to be pious.

I hope you get my perspective. Everyone asks religious people to prove God, show some evidence and the debates rage on. I don't care about any of that. As an agnostic I feel that there can be a higher supreme power just as likely as we are atoms and space particles created by accident. I don't question that aspect of faith. But it is the notion that the religious people must somehow be virtous and follow the principles and ethos, and yet the people they vote for or the people who are successful(wealth) never follow those and yet none of the billions of religious thinking people question this. They just trudge along. The poor and homeless are too busy looking for shelter or food to think about faith or ethos and the wealthy and the powerful use everyone around them, they network and form alliances. It is the middle class- the religious, devout hardworking man of principle who is used and forgotten- and these people are followers of God.
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Old Yesterday, 10:53 AM
 
455 posts, read 82,325 times
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Sounds like your gripe is with politicians and fallen man, not 'religion' - a word the world uses to describe systems where man works his way to attain salvation

All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but God loved us even when we were sinners and thus Christ died for us, that all who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. And this is a free gift, not dependent on your works, that no one may boast, and that no one may claim comes from any sort of personal qualifications or achievements

You, and anyone else reading this, can achieve eternal salvation today by turning to Christ in faith as personal lord and savior
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Old Yesterday, 10:54 AM
Status: "Freedom - Diversity - Unity" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Better left unsaid
4,345 posts, read 1,693,650 times
Reputation: 6131
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
So basically the religious folks(middle class) are "serving" the very people they despise(bankers, narcissistic movie stars and the people of the government- especially the people of the govenrment, who they elect every few years hoping for things to get better). I read a Rush Limbaugh and and Thomas Sowell discussion...
Well, "religious folks" come from all economic groups (poor, middle class, upper class), all walks of life, all demographics, and can be of belief in any religion. I've come across plenty of religious Jews, Mormons, and Catholics, and we saw heavy-duty religious extremism from the Muslim side with 9/11.

You've come to narrow conclusions about Christianity, because you're assuming all Christians to be of one group (middle class, into politics, liking movie stars and media loudmouths). I for one can't stand politics, and never pay attention to movie stars and self-absorbed media nutjobs. Your annoyance sounds more politically-based than anything else.

In the end, we all have freedom to worship and believe, be religious or spiritual or none of the above. If you don't like something, join the group. We all have dislikes and grievances, but we're unlikely to change others or be able to axe things in the world, just because we don't like them or agree with them.

It's far better and healthier to find something you can improve upon, and focus on that. We're currently overbooked with bellyachers and complainers. Be part of the solution; instead of adding to the problem. Dumping your gripes would be a great starting point. Instead of what's wrong, how about what's right? It's a new day, and you can begin a new way.

Last edited by Thoreau424; Yesterday at 11:05 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,939 posts, read 9,412,316 times
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I'm not clear how you can say you're a Hindu "non-believer"?
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Old Yesterday, 12:39 PM
 
460 posts, read 684,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not clear how you can say you're a Hindu "non-believer"?
I don't understand your point. I was born and raised in a Hindu household but I don't practise any customs nor partake in any of its belief systems. I am an agnostic- and I believe every human being is an agnostic. They are simply unaware of it.
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Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
13,513 posts, read 11,211,617 times
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My gripes have to do with religion, not people and politicians.

1. They keep presenting that there is separation between you and the Supreme Being
2. There teachings stifle or stunt or slow the advancement of the soul, us.
3. Many teach to be fearful of this Infinite Being
4. Many have perverted the original experience of the original 'founder' of the religion
5. The original Masters..Buddha, Jesus, Bahá'u'lláh and others...did not intend to create a religion, per se.
6. Rituals, ceremonies, liturgies, attending services have replaced being alone and still in silence to exp this
Divine One directly.
7. Lies have been told regarding benefits for giving money to the Church.
8. Some teach that there is a 'go-between' for each one of us to exp our Father
9. Some teach that there is a hell if you do not follow or even believe 'whatever'
10. Whole congregations are encouraged to ostracize members
11. Some teach to kill those that do not believe as they do, again the "them and us" false teaching.
12. Some do not teach or encourage there people to speak in tongues or to practice healings, then kick
out those that do believe in those


I could go on ...these are just off the top...
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Old Yesterday, 12:46 PM
 
460 posts, read 684,969 times
Reputation: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Well, "religious folks" come from all economic groups (poor, middle class, upper class), all walks of life, all demographics, and can be of belief in any religion. I've come across plenty of religious Jews, Mormons, and Catholics, and we saw heavy-duty religious extremism from the Muslim side with 9/11.

You've come to narrow conclusions about Christianity, because you're assuming all Christians to be of one group (middle class, into politics, liking movie stars and media loudmouths). I for one can't stand politics, and never pay attention to movie stars and self-absorbed media nutjobs. Your annoyance sounds more politically-based than anything else.

In the end, we all have freedom to worship and believe, be religious or spiritual or none of the above. If you don't like something, join the group. We all have dislikes and grievances, but we're unlikely to change others or be able to axe things in the world, just because we don't like them or agree with them.

It's far better and healthier to find something you can improve upon, and focus on that. We're currently overbooked with bellyachers and complainers. Be part of the solution; instead of adding to the problem. Dumping your gripes would be a great starting point. Instead of what's wrong, how about what's right? It's a new day, and you can begin a new way.
I did not specifically mention Christians- I barely know anything about it, or what or why it came to be. My gripe is with the fact that all religions tell you to be "so and so", but as one grows older they realize(if they do) that to achieve success or power in this lifetime(which is all we know as certified by science) one must be amoral. Should I commit all so called "sins" to get ahead in life? Because all the great men mostly did. T
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Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
 
460 posts, read 684,969 times
Reputation: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
My gripes have to do with religion, not people and politicians.

1. They keep presenting that there is separation between you and the Supreme Being
2. There teachings stifle or stunt or slow the advancement of the soul, us.
3. Many teach to be fearful of this Infinite Being
4. Many have perverted the original experience of the original 'founder' of the religion
5. The original Masters..Buddha, Jesus, Bahá'u'lláh and others...did not intend to create a religion, per se.
6. Rituals, ceremonies, liturgies, attending services have replaced being alone and still in silence to exp this
Divine One directly.
7. Lies have been told regarding benefits for giving money to the Church.
8. Some teach that there is a 'go-between' for each one of us to exp our Father
9. Some teach that there is a hell if you do not follow or even believe 'whatever'
10. Whole congregations are encouraged to ostracize members
11. Some teach to kill those that do not believe as they do, again the "them and us" false teaching.
12. Some do not teach or encourage there people to speak in tongues or to practice healings.


I could go on ...these are just off the top...
You are a very special lady
I should also add to the list- all of them are so anti science I am surprised they still exist. My hero Napoleon was correct- It keeps the people happy like opium, or cocaine, so from a political POV that makes sense-one reason I am in favor of unlimited muslim immigrants in America is because it is what the country needs to balance things out and spice things up, even though I can't stand any of Islam's archaic traditions.
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Old Yesterday, 12:57 PM
Status: "Freedom - Diversity - Unity" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Better left unsaid
4,345 posts, read 1,693,650 times
Reputation: 6131
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
...as one grows older they realize(if they do) that to achieve success or power in this lifetime (which is all we know as certified by science) one must be amoral. Should I commit all so called "sins" to get ahead in life? Because all the great men mostly did. T
I don't see your suggested and implied rule that to be successful automatically requires being amoral and committing "sins". Being honest in the workplace can lead to being successful. Keeping from killing people on the road is being successful(!) Helping neighbors with genuine friendship and support is being successful. Living a life with integrity and peace can be considered success.

Just because some might achieve rank, position, status, and wealth through troubling ways, doesn't mean that they won't suffer in some way, at some point. None of us can answer that conclusively, though many believe there will be punishment and/or karma, if you wish.

In the end, we can only control our lives. Even if the world is f-ed up, that doesn't take us off the hook. Why be obsessed and tripped up by what others do? Humanity will never make complete sense. Live your life, while you can. You might be gone tomorrow.
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Old Yesterday, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,939 posts, read 9,412,316 times
Reputation: 19087
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
I don't understand your point. I was born and raised in a Hindu household but I don't practise any customs nor partake in any of its belief systems. I am an agnostic- and I believe every human being is an agnostic. They are simply unaware of it.
Interesting that you know other people better than they know themselves.
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