U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-15-2019, 01:14 PM
 
38,391 posts, read 10,502,517 times
Reputation: 5036

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
That's because their relatives ARE standing in front of them. In the spiritual realm. They can see them because they are close to death and their spiritual eyes have been opened.
One thing that surprises me...and atheists could perhaps set up a project here...is the lack of collation of NDE's (which are a real enough phenomenon) from different religious backgrounds. The majority of the reports come from Christian backgrounds but even then what they experience is closely related to their religious education as it were. There were some NDE's by atheists and they were pretty non -religious, though the same feelings were there.

What is pretty clear is that they may, possibly, be revealing some existence after death, but they are telling us nothing reliable about what that 'afterlife' is like.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-15-2019, 02:47 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,376 posts, read 69,305,994 times
Reputation: 74946
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
One thing that surprises me...and atheists could perhaps set up a project here...is the lack of collation of NDE's (which are a real enough phenomenon) from different religious backgrounds. The majority of the reports come from Christian backgrounds but even then what they experience is closely related to their religious education as it were. There were some NDE's by atheists and they were pretty non -religious, though the same feelings were there.

What is pretty clear is that they may, possibly, be revealing some existence after death, but they are telling us nothing reliable about what that 'afterlife' is like.
The organization IANDS, for the study of Near Death Experiences, does have a compilation of experiences of people from different countries, cultures and creeds.
https://iands.org

I'm not sure what you mean about "not telling us anything reliable about what that 'afterlife' is like". It's been described in detail by some Near Death Experiencers, if you consider their testimony "reliable", and there are similarities that crop up among the stories. Many describe a heavenly garden full of meadows with bright-colored flowers, for example. But many others never get to that stage in their experience, so those descriptions are absent. Many report a bright ball of light, that, if they get close enough, is experienced as Divine energy. Some say the Divine Light communicates with them, and tells them (at some point), that it's time for them to go back.

Common elements like the garden, and the Light do come up. But some only get as far as the tunnel, and maybe seeing deceased relatives. They suddenly, they're wrenched back into their bodies. So from those people, we con't get a view of the "afterlife" life.

Another source of info besides IANDS, is Afterlife TV on youtube. The host interviews Near Death experiencers.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-E...D-tfOKJKSWltEg
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-15-2019, 03:31 PM
 
Location: NSW
2,703 posts, read 1,836,535 times
Reputation: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Read up on Near Death Experiences. Some people have a hellish experience. Some manage to escape it, by reciting a prayer or saying Jesus' name. I don't recall any stories of people who were brought back to live while in the midst of a hellish experience with no apparent way out, but there may be some.

Interesting stuff.
There were plenty of them, see Bryan Melvin for example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MPHGt9LmfA
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-15-2019, 03:35 PM
 
Location: NSW
2,703 posts, read 1,836,535 times
Reputation: 934
One thing above, is that Bryan Melvin mentioned he was rejected because he would "keep sin alive" in Heaven.
Does this mean that those who enter Heaven, all of which were sinners on Earth except for Jesus Christ, no longer sin again?
This seems impossible to sustain on earth, I do not see how it could be sustainable in the afterlife.
Of course those in Hell apparently do keep sinning, because they swear and curse God, which hardly seems an overreaction when you have no way out of there, and God is not going to suddenly change His mind anyway.

Last edited by Derek41; 05-15-2019 at 03:48 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2019, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,093 posts, read 10,215,750 times
Reputation: 2568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
There were plenty of them, see Bryan Melvin for example:
Oh dear!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2019, 12:05 PM
 
387 posts, read 69,690 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I'm not sure what you mean about "not telling us anything reliable about what that 'afterlife' is like".
Trans can speak for himself, but I assume he was merely acknowledging the fact that the "near death experiencers" were not DEAD. They may have been NEAR death, but were not, to quote the Munchkins, "really most sincerely dead!"

At most, they may have been approaching some transition state between life and death, but they did not actually die and stay dead. So their experiences don't really tell us anything about the existence of an afterlife, because they never got there. From a physiologic standpoint, which is relevant to this discussion, we have no idea if what they experienced was actually a glimpse of the "other side"... or just as likely, the neurochemical byproduct of a dying brain under stress, oxygen deprivation, etc. People also give very vivid, colorful descriptions of their dreams, which can seem very real and meaningful.... yet we don't think they were (actually) in another world when they were sleeping. There is no more reason to think the near death brain is showing us another world, than we think it does when we are in a dream state.

Last edited by HeelaMonster; 05-16-2019 at 12:15 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2019, 02:25 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,376 posts, read 69,305,994 times
Reputation: 74946
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
Trans can speak for himself, but I assume he was merely acknowledging the fact that the "near death experiencers" were not DEAD. They may have been NEAR death, but were not, to quote the Munchkins, "really most sincerely dead!"

At most, they may have been approaching some transition state between life and death, but they did not actually die and stay dead. So their experiences don't really tell us anything about the existence of an afterlife, because they never got there. From a physiologic standpoint, which is relevant to this discussion, we have no idea if what they experienced was actually a glimpse of the "other side"... or just as likely, the neurochemical byproduct of a dying brain under stress, oxygen deprivation, etc. People also give very vivid, colorful descriptions of their dreams, which can seem very real and meaningful.... yet we don't think they were (actually) in another world when they were sleeping. There is no more reason to think the near death brain is showing us another world, than we think it does when we are in a dream state.
Whether or not they died is debatable. There are surgeons, who say their patients "died", i.e. flatlined. This may cause us to re-define death, which is a valid question, I think.

Others might say, the NDE people's experience was subjective, so isn't really proof of anything. I was wondering what Transponder had in mind, though, when he said the NDE reports by atheists tell us nothing reliable about the afterlife. Different people bring different objections to the discussion, so I was just curious.

Dutch cardiac surgeon Pim Van Lommel refutes the oxygen-deprivation-causing-hallucinations theory in his book on NDE's. I don't have the book handy, to look up his argument, but he writes an interesting book, after ignoring his patients' stories for years, then finally deciding that there were so many of them with NDE stories, that he should look into the matter. These were patients, who did flatline on his operating table, then revived (with great effort on the medical staff's side).. He gets into the nature of consciousness, presenting the latest scientific theories in that regard, in his effort to make sense of the NDE phenom. Interesting reading.

https://www.amazon.com/Consciousness...gateway&sr=8-1
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2019, 04:25 PM
 
4,213 posts, read 1,601,670 times
Reputation: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek41 View Post
One thing above, is that Bryan Melvin mentioned he was rejected because he would "keep sin alive" in Heaven.
Does this mean that those who enter Heaven, all of which were sinners on Earth except for Jesus Christ, no longer sin again?
This seems impossible to sustain on earth, I do not see how it could be sustainable in the afterlife.
Of course those in Hell apparently do keep sinning, because they swear and curse God, which hardly seems an overreaction when you have no way out of there, and God is not going to suddenly change His mind anyway.


Gods justice scales--An eye for an eye, makes a literal hell-IMPOSSIBLE. For 70-100 years of a life of unrepented sin, does not get one trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of years of never ending eternal suffering( literally) It is symbolism for the value lost by those who were refused entrance into Gods kingdom.
The true living God set--LIFE OR DEATH before all-Deuteronomy 30:19. All through the bible= 99% mislead--these are the last days-2Timothy 3.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2019, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,496 posts, read 14,054,782 times
Reputation: 15687
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
There were some NDE's by atheists and they were pretty non -religious, though the same feelings were there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The organization IANDS, for the study of Near Death Experiences, does have a compilation of experiences of people from different countries, cultures and creeds.
That's because of contamination.

The only way to scientifically verify NDEs is with a Control Group who has never been contaminated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Whether or not they died is debatable. There are surgeons, who say their patients "died", i.e. flatlined. This may cause us to re-define death, which is a valid question, I think.
The US Supreme Court has already defined death.

The term "flat-line" refers to the heart-monitor. The brain is not hooked up to an EEG, so we have no way of knowing if the brain "flat-lined."

Depending on race, ethnicity, gender, age, body weight, physical condition, body temperature and a host of other factors, the organs --including the brain -- can survive for some time, after the heart stops beating.

So, "flat-line" does not meet the US Supreme Court's definition of death, and those people didn't really die.

The issue is cellular respiration. So long as cells have access to Oxygen, water, nutrients and chemicals they can function. When they can no longer get those things, the cells start dying, en masse.

Organs have different metabolic rates, and the brain has the highest.

Unfortunately, paramedics are sometimes able to revive people who have not been breathing for 10, 15 or 20 minutes, and while the major organs are functioning again, the brain is dead.

The brain stem works, but that part of the brain that makes you who you are is nothing but dead decaying cells and there's no way to fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Others might say, the NDE people's experience was subjective, so isn't really proof of anything.
And, those people would be absolutely correct.

If NDEs were real, then everyone should have the exact same vision.

Right?

Either there's one Heaven for everyone, or it's all nonsense, because there aren't separate Heavens for every one of the hundreds of different sects of christianity, not to mention other religions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I was wondering what Transponder had in mind, though, when he said the NDE reports by atheists tell us nothing reliable about the afterlife.
It's pretty obvious.

One, Atheists have been contaminated with concepts of an after-life, and two, the majority of Atheists were of one religion or another before gaining the wisdom that it's all nonsense.

Like I said, there is one and only way to prove NDEs and that's with a Control Group being a representative population sample -- about 2,800 to 3,200 people -- that has never been contaminated.

That means words like god, religion, Heaven, Hell, soul, angels, after-life, bible, scripture, church, synagogue, mosque, etc etc are not part of their vocabulary, because those people have never been contaminated with those concepts and they know absolutely nothing about those concepts.

So, if a person, who has never heard those words and has no knowledge, concept, belief or view of an after-life has an NDE, then you might actually be onto something.

It still wouldn't prove it's real, all it would prove is that some people -- but not all -- when under physiological or emotional distress experience something in the mind.

To be sure, you'd be one step closer, but it still isn't proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
That's because their relatives ARE standing in front of them. In the spiritual realm.
There is no spiritual realm, because nothing unreal exists.

Everything real occupies space and time, and seeing how the spiritual realm does neither, it doesn't exist.

Maybe it makes you feel better, but you can take a bath in lavender bubble bath and feel better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-16-2019, 05:51 PM
 
39,428 posts, read 26,456,203 times
Reputation: 6002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
If NDEs were real, then everyone should have the exact same vision.

Right?

Either there's one Heaven for everyone, or it's all nonsense because there aren't separate Heavens for every one of the hundreds of different sects of Christianity, not to mention other religions.
It's pretty obvious.
I've become used to your unwarranted assertions and hyperbole but you really have to stop using your opinions about subjects we know very little about AS IF they were"obvious." If you have personal experiences that lead you to these "certainties" at least tell us what they are. I use my personal experiences for my certainties. How do you know that we can't have separate Heavens for each individual? We DO have separate dreams which are altered state glimpses into the spiritual dimension.

BTW, as an aside, your understanding of the scientific method, especially as it regards human experience, is myopic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top