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I have lived on both coasts in this country, and went to college in the middle. I have met many member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, referred to as Mormons but preferring to be called the full name. I have never met nicer people in my entire life. I have been invited to church and attended many times and haven’t found the religion to be secretive at all, every question I’ve had has been answered. I feel welcome every single time I enter the church building.
Not only does the church invite my family to their services, parties, and celebrations, they have never asked me for one penny. They have Missionairies who come by my home who are nothing but polite, helping me with anything needed around my home, or my neighbors. For five years I have been socializing with members of this church and not once have they pressured me to be baptized or join the church. They respect my beliefs, which are different than theirs, and continue to be my friend and invite my family to church events.
I feel the need to post this because of the wonderful experiences I’ve had. Their beliefs do not hurt anybody. Look at Elizabeth Smart, she attributes her recovery from her kidnapping to her faith and strength of her family, which is huge in the LDS doctrine. I’m in awe of her. And I’m in awe of the LDS families I know, which are many.
Thanks for reading! Respecting each other is the key to happiness in my opinion.
I'd be interested to understand the reasoning behind the practice Katzpur, if you care to share.
I wrote an in-depth response to this question a number of years ago, if you'd like to read it. An abbreviated answer would be that we believe baptism to be essential for a person to receive all of the blessings God has in store for him. We further believe that this baptism must be performed by someone who holds the proper authority (i.e. the Aaronic Priesthood). Since billions of people have lived and died without having had the chance to be baptized by someone holding that authority, we perform proxy baptisms on behalf of our deceased ancestors, who are then free to either accept or reject them. Individuals who receive proxy baptism are not counted on the membership records of the Church.
When a Latter-day Saint stands as proxy for a deceased relative and is baptized “for and on behalf” of that person, he knows that the baptism will be considered valid and binding in the eyes of God only if it is accepted by the individual who is now “on the other side.” If I were to be baptized for my great-great-great-great-great grandmother who was a devout Catholic throughout her life, it is the position of the Church that this baptism I’m receiving on her behalf will be valid only if she wishes it to be. Since the Church was not founded until several hundred years after her death, she obviously never had the option of converting to it during her lifetime. Perhaps, having been taught the restored gospel in the Spirit World, she might pleased and touched to have had one of her descendants perform this necessary ordinance for her. If, on the other hand, her response is, “Hell, no! I spent my life as a Catholic. I don't want to be a Mormon!” then the baptism will simply be null and void. I will have wasted some of my time, but that’s about it. Mormons can’t posthumously convert anyone by force. The ordinances of baptism and confirmation are binding only if the individual accepts them.
Whether it's physically or related to the soul (if there is such a thing), I can't think of things that should be done to people without their consent. If Adolf Hitler or Dean Martin wanted to be baptized into the Mormon Church, they could have done so by giving consent during their lifetime. And I have to believe that if there is a god, after someone dies that that all-powerful and ever-loving god were asked by that person to be baptized, god would do it. This idea that some guy has the power to sprinkle a little water on someone's head (or dunk them), and that that's what's required to be accepted by god is bizarre.
I wrote an in-depth response to this question a number of years ago, if you'd like to read it. An abbreviated answer would be that we believe baptism to be essential for a person to receive all of the blessings God has in store for him. We further believe that this baptism must be performed by someone who holds the proper authority (i.e. the Aaronic Priesthood). Since billions of people have lived and died without having had the chance to be baptized by someone holding that authority, we perform proxy baptisms on behalf of our deceased ancestors, who are then free to either accept or reject them. Individuals who receive proxy baptism are not counted on the membership records of the Church.
When a Latter-day Saint stands as proxy for a deceased relative and is baptized “for and on behalf” of that person, he knows that the baptism will be considered valid and binding in the eyes of God only if it is accepted by the individual who is now “on the other side.” If I were to be baptized for my great-great-great-great-great grandmother who was a devout Catholic throughout her life, it is the position of the Church that this baptism I’m receiving on her behalf will be valid only if she wishes it to be. Since the Church was not founded until several hundred years after her death, she obviously never had the option of converting to it during her lifetime. Perhaps, having been taught the restored gospel in the Spirit World, she might pleased and touched to have had one of her descendants perform this necessary ordinance for her. If, on the other hand, her response is, “Hell, no! I spent my life as a Catholic. I don't want to be a Mormon!” then the baptism will simply be null and void. I will have wasted some of my time, but that’s about it. Mormons can’t posthumously convert anyone by force. The ordinances of baptism and confirmation are binding only if the individual accepts them.
Okay, here’s my take on this.
As an atheist seeing this from the perspective of the dead person, it matters not whether that person is baptized or not, or whether they gave consent. The person is dead. They have no emotion or feeling about it.
However, I am not about disrespecting the memory of that person - by that I mean how they will be remembered by others: - friends, family, whoever knew them in life.
If a person was known to have lived life in a certain way, I am respectful of continuing that memory and wishes of that person once they are dead - both out of respect for those left behind, and for the life that person chose to lead.
From a Mormon perspective I can see that according to your beliefs, you are doing a good thing for that person passed on.
However I can also see that people related to that person, who are not Mormon, might be object to it. If one of those people's descendants happen to be Catholic, they might be offended that their great-great-great-great-great grandmother had not consented to the baptism.
Whether it's physically or related to the soul (if there is such a thing), I can't think of things that should be done to people without their consent. If Adolf Hitler or Dean Martin wanted to be baptized into the Mormon Church, they could have done so by giving consent during their lifetime. And I have to believe that if there is a god, after someone dies that that all-powerful and ever-loving god were asked by that person to be baptized, god would do it. This idea that some guy has the power to sprinkle a little water on someone's head (or dunk them), and that that's what's required to be accepted by god is bizarre.
Take a chill pill and read post #27.
Your question was ambiguous - I was simply asking you to clarify what you meant.
We all have very different beliefs here - that's what the forum is all about - seeing other perspectives.
As an atheist, to me, objectively it matters not what happens after a person is dead (with caveats I mentioned in the last post).
I agree that the idea that some guy has the power to sprinkle a little water on someone's head (or dunk them), is all that's required to be accepted by god is bizarre. But then I'm not a Mormon, or a Christian for that matter. I think any belief in god or an after life is bizarre but I'm trying to see things from others point of view.
Your question was ambiguous - I was simply asking you to clarify what you meant.
We all have very different beliefs here - that's what the forum is all about - seeing other perspectives.
As an atheist, to me, objectively it matters not what happens after a person is dead (with caveats I mentioned in the last post).
I agree that the idea that some guy has the power to sprinkle a little water on someone's head (or dunk them), is all that's required to be accepted by god is bizarre. But then I'm not a Mormon, or a Christian for that matter. I think any belief in god or an after life is bizarre but I'm trying to see things from others point of view.
I'll tell you why it matters -- christians try to tell us that they don't force their religion on others. I don't know what is a better example of forcing one's religions on others than to do something to their soul after they're dead and defenseless.
I'll tell you why it matters -- christians try to tell us that they don't force their religion on others. I don't know what is a better example of forcing one's religions on others than to do something to their soul after they're dead and defenseless.
If you had read Katzpur's explanation, as I understand it, they do not believe they are forcing anything on a persons soul.
According to Katzpur, if I read correctly:
Quote:
Since billions of people have lived and died without having had the chance to be baptized by someone holding that authority, we perform proxy baptisms on behalf of our deceased ancestors, who are then free to either accept or reject them.
As an atheist seeing this from the perspective of the dead person, it matters not whether that person is baptized or not. The person is dead. They have no emotion or feeling about it.
However, I am not about disrespecting the memory of that person - by that I mean how they will be remembered by others: - friends, family, whoever knew them in life.
If a person was known to have lived life in a certain way, I am respectful of continuing that memory and wishes of that person once they are dead - both out of respect for those left behind, and for the life that person chose to lead.
From a Mormon perspective I can see that according to your beliefs, you are doing a good thing for that person passed on.
However I can also see that people related to that person, who are not Mormon, might be object to it. If one of those people's descendants happen to be Catholic, they might be offended that their great-great-great-great-great grandmother had not consented to the baptism.
Thanks for your thoughts, Cruithne. Just to clarify one thing...
I think it's pretty unlikely that if someone lived a good life as a practicing Catholic or Lutheran or atheist, for that matter, the fact that a Mormon relative had performed a proxy baptism on his behalf would change how that person was remembered by those who knew and loved him. (Actually, the vast majority of proxy baptisms are performed for individuals who have been dead for well over 100 years, so they have no one left who actually knew them personally.) And as I said before, we are not supposed to be performing these baptisms for anyone other than our own ancestors. Members of the Church who do not respect this rule are subject to having their temple privileges (i.e. the right to be involved in future baptisms) revoked.
If you had read Katzpur's explanation, as I understand it, they do not believe they are forcing anything on a persons soul. According to Katzpur, if I read correctly... The soul is free to reject the baptism.
You got it right, Cruithne. Besides, I've never really understood why someone who denies the existence of the soul in the first place would be so indignant about someone "doing something to [someone else's soul] after death." If a person truly does not have a soul, what exactly is it that is being forced upon that non-existent soul?
Thanks for your thoughts, Cruithne. Just to clarify one thing...
I think it's pretty unlikely that if someone lived a good life as a practicing Catholic or Lutheran or atheist, for that matter, the fact that a Mormon relative had performed a proxy baptism on his behalf would change how that person was remembered by those who knew and loved him. (Actually, the vast majority of proxy baptisms are performed for individuals who have been dead for well over 100 years, so they have no one left who actually knew them personally.) And as I said before, we are not supposed to be performing these baptisms for anyone other than our own ancestors. Members of the Church who do not respect this rule are subject to having their temple privileges (i.e. the right to be involved in future baptisms) revoked.
Fair enough.
Here's a thought though:
Even with the best genealogist at your disposal, you cannot possibly know who all your ancestors were throughout history.
You will have hundreds of thousands of ancestors. If a Baptism, posthumous or otherwise is required to receive all the blessings of god, there are an awful lot of dead person's souls missing out through no fault of their own and despite all your best efforts.
I'm sure you have thought about all of this, but throwing it out there.
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