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Old 04-25-2019, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,877,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
That’s EXACTLY what I am saying.
You mentioned Shi’ete, Sunni, Wahabi.

And I am REQUESTING you to point me towards the Christian denomination that does NOT believe in item 1&2.
This is just for my own knowledge.
Then do a web search on "once saved," and I'm sure you will find out more than you need to know. I did one on "Calif."
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:19 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,047,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So Atheism is the right religion by logic?
By logic and lack of proper facts and good data, yes, I suppose that one would be acceptable.
By the truth of the matter... who knows.
And who CAN know, simply by merely THINKING that they know without any good doubt?
Thus no Sentient Being can deny agnosticism and truly live.
Agnostic Atheism is the least assumptive position unless you think your personal interpretations and experiences and those of your friends matter more than a testable universal truth. In which case, having anecdotes of miracles (nature-denying magic that cannot be repeated by humans, and is not spacial-temporally repeating at any sort of testable level) might capture on well, and an even cozier and better captured if one thought that they had personal experiences of some of these "convincing" mysteries labeled as miracles because they happened to have a good outcome.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:22 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,047,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post

And I am REQUESTING you to point me towards the Christian denomination that does NOT believe in item 1&2.
This is just for my own knowledge.
It looks like they are trying to say that Unitarian Universalists are also deeply Christian yet not having to believe that Jesus died for their sins or whatever as "Jesus is the poor and oppressed."

I know that historically there were Jesus followers that did not think he died and resurrected. But their story is thus more boring and less enticing to the desirous yet breeding.
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,877,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
It looks like they are trying to say that Unitarian Universalists are also deeply Christian yet not having to believe that Jesus died for their sins or whatever as "Jesus is the poor and oppressed."

I know that historically there were Jesus followers that did not think he died and resurrected. But their story is thus more boring and less enticing to the desirous yet breeding.
No, what I am saying is that I have zero interest in discussing the vagaries of various "Christian" doctrines any more than the vagaries of Islamic doctrines except to say that they seldom reflect the message of the Christ.
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:38 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,068,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No, what I am saying is that I have zero interest in discussing the vagaries of various "Christian" doctrines any more than the vagaries of Islamic doctrines except to say that they seldom reflect the message of the Christ.

From what I understand, “Jesus died for our sins” is the core doctrine of modern day Christianity.
You tell me if it’s not accepted by Protestants and Catholics? That’s more than a billion Christians right there. Forget the denomations.

Your faith in Christianity really interests me now.

As a Christian, do you believe that Jesus died for your sins?

Matter of fact, a more interesting and thought provoking question is,

Can you still be considered a Christian, if you do NOT believe that Jesus died for your sins?
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:42 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,068,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
By logic and lack of proper facts and good data, yes, I suppose that one would be acceptable.
By the truth of the matter... who knows.
And who CAN know, simply by merely THINKING that they know without any good doubt?
Thus no Sentient Being can deny agnosticism and truly live.
Agnostic Atheism is the least assumptive position unless you think your personal interpretations and experiences and those of your friends matter more than a testable universal truth. In which case, having anecdotes of miracles (nature-denying magic that cannot be repeated by humans, and is not spacial-temporally repeating at any sort of testable level) might capture on well, and an even cozier and better captured if one thought that they had personal experiences of some of these "convincing" mysteries labeled as miracles because they happened to have a good outcome.
What EXACTLY is “Agnostic Atheism”?
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:46 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,047,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
What EXACTLY is “Agnostic Atheism”?
It's a lack of acceptance of the existence (but not the forthright denial of) of any unevidenced or badly evidenced gods, whether they exist or not.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:31 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,068,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
It's a lack of acceptance of the existence (but not the forthright denial of) of any unevidenced or badly evidenced gods, whether they exist or not.
So basically there is no such thing as “evidenced god”, unless of course you are a Hindu or something because you do not need an evidence to prove the existence of a Hindu god. Your “god” is right there in front of you, nicely decorated in flower wreathes.

So if there is no evidenced god, then Atheists and agnostic Atheists should also believe that the entire universe, and everything in it, including all the processes and design in nature (like our solar system), all of it, came together all by itself * BECAUSE * there is no evidence that there is a supremely intelligent and powerful force that created it all.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:55 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,047,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
So basically there is no such thing as “evidenced god”, unless of course you are a Hindu or something because you do not need an evidence to prove the existence of a Hindu god. Your “god” is right there in front of you, nicely decorated in flower wreathes.
In Hinduism, their Quran is the Vedas. And they say pictures and status of the gods (which are described as one and the same as the Only Highest God, Vishnu the Sustainer) in honor of the gods is fine, just like Muslims that honor their Qurans with decorations and the like.

To the Hindus, then, the statues are as much evidence for their Gods as a nicely decorated Quran is evidence of Islam.

However, they feel that the statues and decorating them help them worship the immaterial Gods, just like Muslims think that prostration and honoring the Quran helps them worship their immaterial God who relates to the world for some unknown reason through a book.

Quote:
So if there is no evidenced god, then Atheists and agnostic Atheists should also believe that the entire universe, and everything in it, including all the processes and design in nature (like our solar system), all of it, came together all by itself * BECAUSE * there is no evidence that there is a supremely intelligent and powerful force that created it all.
Should they? If there is no good evidence for a god, then the atheists and agnostics should believe whatever the evidence and logic of any particular topic lead them to. In terms of the entire universe (and unknown regions) and everything in it, including all of the negative and destructive processes and inadequate and faulty designs in nature (like the solar system eventually collapsing), they can believe that our space-time likely expanded from a point of origin, and is accelerating in expansion rate (and even that is subject to revision if better testable evidence comes along). Beyond that, there is no evidence, only speculations that some would care for and others would not.

Without gods, any mindless or mindful universe can exist forever in one iteration or another.
Without gods, any mindless or mindful universe can come together all by itself, because there might not be anything to stop it.
Without gods, anything is possible, and nothing is permitted or denied by gods particularly.
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Old 04-27-2019, 06:04 AM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,068,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
In Hinduism, their Quran is the Vedas. And they say pictures and status of the gods (which are described as one and the same as the Only Highest God, Vishnu the Sustainer) in honor of the gods is fine, just like Muslims that honor their Qurans with decorations and the like.

To the Hindus, then, the statues are as much evidence for their Gods as a nicely decorated Quran is evidence of Islam.

However, they feel that the statues and decorating them help them worship the immaterial Gods, just like Muslims think that prostration and honoring the Quran helps them worship their immaterial God who relates to the world for some unknown reason through a book.



Should they? If there is no good evidence for a god, then the atheists and agnostics should believe whatever the evidence and logic of any particular topic lead them to. In terms of the entire universe (and unknown regions) and everything in it, including all of the negative and destructive processes and inadequate and faulty designs in nature (like the solar system eventually collapsing), they can believe that our space-time likely expanded from a point of origin, and is accelerating in expansion rate (and even that is subject to revision if better testable evidence comes along). Beyond that, there is no evidence, only speculations that some would care for and others would not.

Without gods, any mindless or mindful universe can exist forever in one iteration or another.
Without gods, any mindless or mindful universe can come together all by itself, because there might not be anything to stop it.
Without gods, anything is possible, and nothing is permitted or denied by gods particularly.

I don’t think I agree with it.
Wether the design of the universes and processes in it are faulty or not, is NOT the question.

The question is about their creation and design.

If it started with Big Bang then as per Atheists’ logic, all the design in nature, for example the location of North Star, the motion of planets in our solar system, the formation of the Orion Belt, and many other things, are designed and came together all by itself and nothing is controlling them. Agree?

As per faith, the forces of God make the earth rotate in a certain direction that makes the sun rise from the East, why don’t you and all the Atheists make the sun rise from the West IF indeed
Quote:
”Without gods, anything is possible, and nothing is permitted or denied by gods particularly.
??

Why don’t you go ahead and fix the “faulty designs in the universe”?

Matter or fact, IF “Without gods, anything is possible, and nothing is permitted or denied by gods particularly.”
then why don’t you and entire Atheists join forces to create a functioning wing of a mosquito?

Why don’t you milk a cow and try your best to put the milk back into its udders from the same way it came out from?

Forget that, why don’t you try not to blink for a day if there is no controlling force out there?

Indeed God has given us logic, intelligence, resources and permission to be able to do a lot of things (good or bad) and there are things where we don’t have the permission or ability to do or change them because another “FORCE” is controlling them and that “FORCE” does not allow us to change it.

As per Einstein

“Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this FORCE beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in fact, religious.
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