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Your "estimation" is still way off: make it more like "flaws are perceptions about how something that occurs may affect us and have nothing real to do with actual conditions or real processes of the universe. To claim that anything that happens in the universe is flawed in itself is simply flawed logic. As such the "flaw" is ONLY in the perceiver.
Your "estimation" is still way off: make it more like "flaws are perceptions about how something that occurs may affect us and have nothing real to do with actual conditions or real processes of the universe. To claim that anything that happens in the universe is flawed in itself is simply flawed logic. As such the "flaw" is ONLY in the perceiver.
Yet perceptions are real, actual conditions and processes of and within the universe. So if they are flawed, then there are indeed flaws in the universe.
As the perceiver is part of the bigger universe, the flaw is also in the universe.
Given your rationalizational train of thought, you'd have to say that even percepts of flaws are flawless in the universe.
That is why I do not like your personal definition of "flaw," and prefer the more common one.
The eye of the beholder might still be flawed for spotting flaws (as everything is supposed for some unknown reason as being Perfect merely for being itself), but that would still mean that there are at the very least such flaws in the universe.
Yet perceptions are real, actual conditions and processes of and within the universe. So if they are flawed, then there are indeed flaws in the universe.
As the perceiver is part of the bigger universe, the flaw is also in the universe.
Given your rationalizational train of thought, you'd have to say that even percepts of flaws are flawless in the universe.
That is why I do not like your personal definition of "flaw," and prefer the more common one.
The eye of the beholder might still be flawed for spotting flaws (as everything is supposed for some unknown reason as being Perfect merely for being itself), but that would still mean that there are at the very least such flaws in the universe.
Are you an expert of creating universes and being able to fix the flaws in them?
As humans, I think our knowledge is way, way too limited to be able to claim that it has flaws. We don’t know what happens tomorrow but the processes in the universe are happening for billions of years and who knows for however many more billions of years they will confinue.
But a more interesting thought is that you believe that all these processes in the universe, the creation and destructions of the Stars, the design of glaxies, the orbital motion of the Planets, - ALL OF IT - is happening all by itself for billions of years without any plan, without any design and without any controlling force.
Your "estimation" is still way off: make it more like "flaws are perceptions about how something that occurs may affect us and have nothing real to do with actual conditions or real processes of the universe. To claim that anything that happens in the universe is flawed in itself is simply flawed logic. As such the "flaw" is ONLY in the perceiver.
To adjudge something a flaw requires that you KNOW what standard it SHOULD have met. No one knows any such thing.
Are you an expert of creating universes and being able to fix the flaws in them?
As humans, I think our knowledge is way, way too limited to be able to claim that it has flaws. We don’t know what happens tomorrow but the processes in the universe are happening for billions of years and who knows for however many more billions of years they will confinue.
Does me being human with human limitations have anything to do with Deluded Gods who deny their own agnosticism incorrectly? I mean, since you are a human with human limitations then should I deny anything you say regarding your ideas (even in relation to Islam)?
So no, for example, it doesn't really matter that Darwin cannot make species evolve into other species, he was still right about natural selection being a great (and the best at the time) explanation for the origin of species.
"God magically poofed them all into existence before or alongside Adam with names and everything" was not.
"Do not be of the deniers and losers."
If there are no flaws then why strive for anything? What would be the purpose of praying 5 times a day for success? You've already succeeded 10000 years ago, and 1000000 years ago. Everything is and has always been perfect thanks to a perfect Creator.
If there are no flaws why is one Quran banned by the Caliphate? Why are Bibles seen as flawed by the Muslims? After all, Alleh plans ahead for, designs into, and controls the existence of Bibles and converts to Christianity and Hinduism. There is no flaw in that? Then there is no need to worry if more statues are erected. There is no need to worry that people are killing and people are dying. There is no need to avoid hurricanes, there is no reason to prevent plagues. There is no
If there are no flaws in any existence, then what significant purpose of life (or after-life Paradise, or any "supernatural plan") is left?
Quote:
But a more interesting thought is that you believe that all these processes in the universe, the creation and destructions of the Stars, the design of glaxies, the orbital motion of the Planets, - ALL OF IT - is happening all by itself for billions of years without any plan, without any design and without any controlling force.
What is extensively interesting to me, is that some continue to deny that patterns are just patterns and not concrete evidence of minded "plan, design, or control."
Patterns are in Christianity, in Hinduism, in Jahanam, in Allah, in the FSM, and in the smudge on my kitchen sink.
Does me being human with human limitations have anything to do with Deluded Gods who deny their own agnosticism incorrectly? I mean, since you are a human with human limitations then should I deny anything you say regarding your ideas (even in relation to Islam)?
So no, for example, it doesn't really matter that Darwin cannot make species evolve into other species, he was still right about natural selection being a great (and the best at the time) explanation for the origin of species.
"God magically poofed them all into existence before or alongside Adam with names and everything" was not.
"Do not be of the deniers and losers."
If there are no flaws then why strive for anything? What would be the purpose of praying 5 times a day for success? You've already succeeded 10000 years ago, and 1000000 years ago. Everything is and has always been perfect thanks to a perfect Creator.
If there are no flaws why is one Quran banned by the Caliphate? Why are Bibles seen as flawed by the Muslims? After all, Alleh plans ahead for, designs into, and controls the existence of Bibles and converts to Christianity and Hinduism. There is no flaw in that? Then there is no need to worry if more statues are erected. There is no need to worry that people are killing and people are dying. There is no need to avoid hurricanes, there is no reason to prevent plagues. There is no
If there are no flaws in any existence, then what significant purpose of life (or after-life Paradise, or any "supernatural plan") is left?
What is extensively interesting to me, is that some continue to deny that patterns are just patterns and not concrete evidence of minded "plan, design, or control."
Patterns are in Christianity, in Hinduism, in Jahanam, in Allah, in the FSM, and in the smudge on my kitchen sink.
From processes to now partterns ?
So, for example, our ecosystem that filters water and creates rain for vegetation, is actually not a process, it’s only a “pattern?
And it’s happening just by chance for millions and billions of years?
From processes to now partterns ?
So, for example, our ecosystem that filters water and creates rain for vegetation, is actually not a process, it’s only a “pattern?
And it’s happening just by chance for millions and billions of years?
I'm glad that you could not begin to deny most of what I wrote in that post.
Indeed, both processes AND patterns. Patterns create processes, and in turn, processes create further patterns.
The water cycle does not "filter" water as such, (acid rain ring a bell?), and it is indeed both a pattern and a process, a process with patterns, and a pattern of a process, etc.
Every minded being needed a process behind it, even Buddhism knows this. Every single sentient being, every single thought.
By chance, there could be 10 or 100 "ultimate Creators who just happen to exist forever due to their nature." By chance, there could be 1. There would be no other reason for just one, except chance/happenstance.
If it were the case that things (a god, or gods, or other existences) can just happen to exist forever without a creator mechanism of their own, then there could be thousands of eternal creator entities or an Infinity of them or zero of them. And it very well could be that there would be no accuracy in the "Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva" of Hinduism, the "Creator-Holy Spirit-Jesus" of Christianity, "Ahura Mazda" of Zoroastrianism, "Void" of a time in Ancient Greece, "Atum" of a time in ancient Egypt, or the "Allah" of Islam.
To adjudge something a flaw requires that you KNOW what standard it SHOULD have met. No one knows any such thing.
Exactly my point MysticPhD. What standard is there for the process to correctly adjudge? What standard is KNOWN for considering, criticizing, and judging?
If there is a flaw in perception,
and perception mechanisms are a part of us,
and we are part of existence,
then there is a flaw in existence.
A simple valid (in this case almost mathematical) syllogism which shows the absurdity of the idea that
"there are no flaws in existence, but there are flaws in the perception of flaws."
Are you an expert of creating universes and being able to fix the flaws in them?
I would not create one with big rocks often flying past earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
As humans, I think our knowledge is way, way too limited to be able to claim that it has flaws. We don’t know what happens tomorrow but the processes in the universe are happening for billions of years and who knows for however many more billions of years they will confinue.
Such as big rocks often flying past earth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
But a more interesting thought is that you believe that all these processes in the universe, the creation and destructions of the Stars, the design of glaxies, the orbital motion of the Planets, - ALL OF IT - is happening all by itself for billions of years without any plan, without any design and without any controlling force.
That does explain the big rocks often flying past earth better than a god doing it.
Exactly my point MysticPhD. What standard is there for the process to correctly adjudge? What standard is KNOWN for considering, criticizing, and judging?
If there is a flaw in perception,
and perception mechanisms are a part of us,
and we are part of existence,
then there is a flaw in existence.
A simple valid (in this case almost mathematical) syllogism which shows the absurdity of the idea that
"there are no flaws in existence, but there are flaws in the perception of flaws."
If anyone ever said that there are no flaws in existence you might have a point. Who did? I told you not to read your own ideas into what I said. Let's try again: the conditions and processes in a universe are simply what they are. To claim that any of them is inherently flawed is faulty reasoning based on expectations of what "should be" that are only derived from the effect a condition or process has on us. There is nothing that requires a universe to perform to our expectations or desires. That you can't think your way out of a wet paper bag is no reflection on the universe.
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