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OP, I think you took a very narrow view at what a faith is.
Also, you talked to wrong people. Their responses do not much sound of faith.
Out of entire FAITH you took one aspect - eternal life (btw, do you REALLY want to praise go for eternity, like in #2?) that is "guaranteed" if faith is maintained.
That's dandy, but leaves the entirety of faith out of perspective.
One with real faith does not even bother to think, what will be his reward in the afterlife. He is in god now, in communion with god now. For him, there is no such thing as stopping faith, as it's like stopping breathing. Being faith-full is natural state and being un-faithful is un natural state.
Does it make sense? Faith you are referring to is more of a qui pro quo arrangement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
He [ukrkoz]is trying to say: Don't ask this question, instead focus on other things.
O.K. problem solved
Wish my math teacher would have accepted answers like that.
[...snip...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
No, Luminous, not what he [ukrkoz] was saying at all. Your math teacher was right, you seem to have no idea what is going on. As for “love,” the principle IS simple, it’s the application that can get hairy. As I have mentioned before, it took Christianity nearly 2,000 years to understand that chattel bondage is wrong in itself.
nateswift, being so defensive doesn't suit you very well. I spend hardly a scoff on somebody trying to make me feel bad or muddy the waters with a supposed lack of math skills which I never lacked. I merely wished that math had been as easy as religion/spirituality's love of ignorance, pick-and-choose favoritism, lack of focus, and violently self-righteous and condescending overreactions. To err is liberally human, I suppose.
"Love's principle is simple, but its application is complicated. Christianity took 2 millennia to understand that slavery was wrong."
Has exactly what to do with how a guarantee of a blissful eternal afterlife for (first-milli-second initiate) cronies makes life on earth merely a purposeless stumbling doormat (since early death of true cronies would be the selfish, safe, and "smart" preference)?
Oh I see, you love the trip-mat and how we (with theological cronyism -specifically the "easy" kind that GoCardinals would think is an illegitimate child) are basically slaves to God's "faith" experiments. I suppose the longer your stay in the "love" doormat before the "better love" heaven, the better, right?
Gotcha.
Otherwise, you guys are simply NOT talking about what GoCardinals (as a Muslim) is talking about.
I'm sure the OP's excuse for why Islam also integrates some of this cronyism would be that Allah and his robots (Gabriel) have said that he can do whatever he sees fit. A true and fair Judge would gravely punish those who tried to have it easy with cronyism, those who followed cronyism just to get through the motions with no sincerity in their hearts, and those who were complicit in cronyism by not ever standing up against it.
Last edited by mensaguy; 03-14-2019 at 09:01 AM..
Reason: removed extra quote tag
Otherwise, you guys are simply NOT talking about what GoCardinals (as a Muslim) is talking about.
And the point remains that, while OP makes an excellent point about the kind of “faith” he dscribed is meaningless, to ignore the “faith” that is clearly meant in the New Testament AS a commitment to the kind of concern for others that makes doing good for them a natural consequence rather than any kind of duty (“quid will pro quo”) does no service to understanding the message we see as the basis of the Way Christ taught.
Otherwise, you guys are simply NOT talking about what GoCardinals (as a Muslim) is talking about.
I'm sure the OP's excuse for why Islam also integrates some of this cronyism would be that Allah and his robots (Gabriel) have said that he can do whatever he sees fit. A true and fair Judge would gravely punish those who tried to have it easy with cronyism, those who followed cronyism just to get through the motions with no sincerity in their hearts, and those who were complicit in cronyism by not ever standing up against it.
Very interesting.
And you wish if this was the case as it seems to sit well with your pre-emptive stereotyping of Islamic knowledge - which I think is unconscious but surely incorrect, IMO.
cronyism doesn't seem to have a place the in Islamic theology in the light of this verse where it talks about the judgement day.
17:15 "Whoever adopts the right path does so for his own benefit, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another.....,"
Years ago, I saw a man wearing a shirt. On the front, it said, "Jesus is coming" on the back, it said, "Look busy."
This was funny as it exposed the shallowness of the message. The key word was "Look".
Apparently, it doesn't work that way in the Islamic theology either.
What's your intention and what's in your heart is what matters behind your action. Hypocrisy or show-off won't help.
Some scholars have stated that this is the most intimidating verse in the entire Quran.
100:10 "..and the secrets of hearts are uncovered, on that Day."
It will be funny if you still believe that you can trick God.
Last edited by mensaguy; 03-14-2019 at 09:03 AM..
Reason: put in a quote tag & made text visible
Disclaimer: This is NOT a thread about proofs and evidences. I would rather like to have a philosophical based logical discussion where we can share our ideas and our thoughts to dig a little deeper into this aspect of belief system.
There is no more accountability of your actions. There is no Hell or punishment for you after believe in such and such.
The question then is, what are you going to do with the rest of your life?
Does it make any significant difference to your guaranteed spot in heaven in regards to what you do in your life?
So the question from such believers is, what's the purpose of your life based on religious guidance (if you have any) after a spot is guaranteed in heaven?
And what happens to your guaranteed spot in heaven if you fail to follow the purpose of your life as prescribed by your faith?
There is accountability.
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! ...Romans 6:1-2
What are we going to do?
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you... Matthew 28:19-20
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
My 'guaranteed spot in heaven' is the reason I want to do as much for Him as I can while I'm here.
The purpose of my life, see Matthew and Ephesians above.
Nothing happens to the 'guaranteed spot...' because it's....guaranteed.
And the point remains that, while OP makes an excellent point about the kind of “faith” he dscribed is meaningless, to ignore the “faith” that is clearly meant in the New Testament AS a commitment to the kind of concern for others that makes doing good for them a natural consequence rather than any kind of duty (“quid will pro quo”) does no service to understanding the message we see as the basis of the Way Christ taught.
So then my point remains. What you and ukrkoz mean is: Don't ask this question, instead focus on other things.
By applying graphics and color to the O.P.'s question, it turns into:
"If your apple tree sapling is guaranteed to be delicious fruit as soon as you cut into it,
then what significant purpose is there left in not wanting to eat it right away?"
And as such my other understanding remains as well. That being that a true and fair Judge would gravely punish those who tried to have it easy with cronyism, those who followed cronyism just to get through the motions with no sincerity in their hearts, and those who were complicit in cronyism by not ever standing up against it.
So then my point remains. What you and ukrkoz mean is: Don't ask this question, instead focus on other things.
By applying graphics and color to the O.P.'s question, it turns into:
"If your apple tree sapling is guaranteed to be delicious fruit as soon as you cut into it,
then what significant purpose is there left in not wanting to eat it right away?"
And as such my other understanding remains as well. That being that a true and fair Judge would gravely punish those who tried to have it easy with cronyism, those who followed cronyism just to get through the motions with no sincerity in their hearts, and those who were complicit in cronyism by not ever standing up against it.
No, alum, not “ don’t ask this question,”just give an answer that shows the whole picture.”
No, alum, not “ don’t ask this question,”just give an answer that shows the whole picture.”
nateswift, it's hard to tell if you are referring to me when you use an uncalled-for nickname.
"love, look at love!!! faith is love!! Parts of faith dogmas cannot be looked at without distracting yourself with good feelings!!"
is in no way an answer to this very specific question nor, as I previously explained, does it provide a wider context. If it somehow provided a wider context, again, that context would be:
Exchanging the doormat concept for a driveway one:
Enjoy walking up the driveway to the house party because the view is so lovely. Disregard the implication that the house interior and the party should be beyond lovelier than the driveway. Take it slow, there are many purposes for taking your time at the driveway.
I think I feel that way. IDK what I think about judgement day but there are times I feel I can't face God if I do this or that and explain myself. Mostly I am like I do not know what is right, but God does, and so I pray for him to help me do right, whatever that is.
I feel no self loathing. When I mess up, I recognize I am merely human, not inherently bad, but simply not perfect. I can't be. I say I am sorry and I mean it. And then try to 'do the next right thing' but not like scrambling. I don't know how to explain it well, I guess.
That is a perfectly fine and honest explanation of your experience.
It is not very different from my own views back in my evangelical days.
My point was different though, that it's circular reasoning to say that if a person is not (in your subjective opinion) exhibiting "sanctification" then they weren't truly saved to begin with.
To the question of the purpose of life in the face of the promise of heaven, if the purpose of life is a sort of learning experience around the sanctification process, it's hard to see how that imparts purpose when even the apostle Paul despaired, saying, "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" referring to his tendency to sin.
There's a lot about the doctrine of sanctification that never made sense to me, even as a Christian. We have a new nature, but struggle with the old. Not much sense of purpose or meaning to be found in that.
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