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Old 03-04-2019, 06:51 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Good question. What did Paul mean by "the twelve"? It can not be the disciples, because according to the gospels and Acts, there were only 11 disciples between Judas killing himself and Jesus going to heaven.

1 Corinthians 15 New International Version (NIV)

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Why, it is like Paul did not know anything about Jesus as described in the gospels.
It could definitely have been 12, because Judas was replaced by the second Mathew/Matthias. And Paul did not convert to Christianity until he had ample time to kill many Christians for Insulting Religion, Insulting the Religious Nature of the Secular State, and Insulting Religious Rituals.

I don't think he will be held accountable for their deaths, I wonder if they love the fairness of their murderer getting away scott free and becoming the SOLE TRUE LEADER in their religion? I suppose if they are masochists or complete factionalists/cronyists then they would
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Old 03-05-2019, 07:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
What did Paul mean by "the twelve"? (Support your answer.)
It could either mean the apostolic group, even if there were only 11 of them, or it could mean an actual number. Though it's odd that he refers to them as the twelve if Judas wasn't there at the time. Note that Luke (Paul's biographer) says it was the eleven that Jesus appeared to, though of course, according to John it was only 10 as Thomas was absent.

However you slice it, and whether you believe the Bible or Paul or both or neither, doesn't really alter the fact that Judas was either slated (as he should have been) for one of the 12 thrones or it was Matthias, elected to replace Judas. Either way, Paul gets no throne.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
If there were no gospels written, then what would they have been? The 12 tribes? I'm just wondering.
12 was a common number in Jewish religious circles for councils. The Dead Sea scrolls records 12 priests at meetings, 3 times 12 priests, and also 12 plus 3 making 15 (similar to Paul and the 12 plus the 3 pillars). You will have to ask our Jewish contributors if this was based on the 12 tribes, but I would guess you are probably correct.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
It could definitely have been 12, because Judas was replaced by the second Mathew/Matthias.
According to the gospels and Acts, Jesus appeared to the disciples and then ascended to heaven before Matthias was chosen.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:00 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
12 was a common number in Jewish religious circles for councils. The Dead Sea scrolls records 12 priests at meetings, 3 times 12 priests, and also 12 plus 3 making 15 (similar to Paul and the 12 plus the 3 pillars). You will have to ask our Jewish contributors if this was based on the 12 tribes, but I would guess you are probably correct.
The canonized books do say that Jesus told them (including Judas, whose name means "Praise") they would each head one of the 12 tribes of Israel under him. You know, because it's necessary given the arbitrary stipulations.
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Old Yesterday, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The canonized books do say that Jesus told them (including Judas, whose name means "Praise") they would each head one of the 12 tribes of Israel under him. You know, because it's necessary given the arbitrary stipulations.
Correct, in Matthew. I had not noticed that odd idea, thank you. And Luke has the same, almost immediately after Jesus says one of them will betray him. This is most strange.

I have to ask myself if this is a case of fatigue at a time when the story of Judas was not well known, only found in Mark.

You have made me perplexed.
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Old Yesterday, 05:46 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Correct, in Matthew. I had not noticed that odd idea, thank you. And Luke has the same, almost immediately after Jesus says one of them will betray him. This is most strange.

I have to ask myself if this is a case of fatigue at a time when the story of Judas was not well known, only found in Mark.

You have made me perplexed.
My guess: You are probably right, but it wasn't really fatigue.

I would say it is not a post-hoc case of interpolation (from some rich sponsor paying a school of scribes to print it that way) like a lot of other more beloved myths within the Bibliolatry are.
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Old Today, 11:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Correct, in Matthew. I had not noticed that odd idea, thank you. And Luke has the same, almost immediately after Jesus says one of them will betray him. This is most strange.

I have to ask myself if this is a case of fatigue at a time when the story of Judas was not well known, only found in Mark.

You have made me perplexed.
I have a explanation. This passage is 'Q' material (only in Matthew and Luke) and - like much of that material - is placed wherever those who used it thought it would fit. Mathew puts it at the start of his trip to Jerusalem; Luke places it at the last supper. I won't try to guess why they picked those places to put it, but Luke didn't bother that it was thereby put in context with part of the story that actually deals with the disciples letting him down.

P.s In checking just now (it is just in Matthew and Luke - in quite different places and times in the story) I came across an apologetic which tries to suggest that there may have been 12 disciples but there didn't have to be 12 thrones (though it ignores that they will be judging the 12 tribes) but goes on to argue that, if there are 12 thrones, Matthias (elected to replace Judas) would get one of them.

This overlooks (as Christianity resolutely does) that Judas was the most necessary disciple of all as without him playing his part, Salvation would not happen. Peter is pretty irrelevant as Paul was instrumental in spreading Christianity and Peter (if anything) got in the way (according to Paul himself, though Luke (in Acts - and rather absurdly) makes him Paul's advocate.

Of course, it would be embarrassing to even consider this point as the gospels have Jesus himself treat Judas as the bad guy. But then, one could argue that Earthly Jesus did not know everything. In fact he must not as the whole story does not work if he does.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Today at 11:20 AM..
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