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Old 03-12-2019, 09:52 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
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When my mother was dying, the hospice nurses told us we should encourage her to move into the light. Those who’ve had near death experiences often mention seeing a bright light that isn’t blinding.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:32 PM
 
367 posts, read 211,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
So then Darkness was before light, or when did G-d create
1. Darkness and [...]
Darkness is not a “thing”, darkness is just the absence of a “thing”, darkness is just the absence of light.

So you could argue that the question “when did G-d create darkness?” is a meaningless question, or maybe you could argue that both light and darkness(the absence of light) were created at the same time.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
14,326 posts, read 11,525,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
Darkness is not a “thing”, darkness is just the absence of a “thing”, darkness is just the absence of light.

So you could argue that the question “when did G-d create darkness?” is a meaningless question, or maybe you could argue that both light and darkness(the absence of light) were created at the same time.
That wasn't complicated at all!! Was darkness even created?
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:16 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,540 posts, read 4,548,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
Darkness is not a “thing”, darkness is just the absence of a “thing”, darkness is just the absence of light.

So you could argue that the question “when did G-d create darkness?” is a meaningless question, or maybe you could argue that both light and darkness(the absence of light) were created at the same time.

Or you could argue that darkness existed with God before light. Or you could argue that darkness only exists because of light.
Fancy that, I can count to 3 and 4.

So I find it odd that some blind people, when made to see by modern medicine, say that they had never before "seen" darkness, and now are tormented by seeing it every time they blink. Yet what I see when I close my eyes are endless dark-neon colors dancing in beautifully aesthetic chaos.

Without darkness, a light would have no substance to differentiate it, and would simply be experienced as another indistinguishable part of nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
That wasn't complicated at all!! Was darkness even created?
I know you are not guilty of complete Bibliolatry, but it bears repeating for those who do not yet know:

Isaiah 45:7 -- "I [the character of God described there in] create darkness."

But no, the writer (a non-priest prophet candidate) and publisher (some king) are wrong. If darkness is the absence of light, then the absence of light always existed with Yahweh before (for a non-time of God existing or for an eternity of God existing) Yahweh got around to creating light.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 03-18-2019 at 07:25 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM
 
367 posts, read 211,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Or you could argue that darkness existed with God before light. Or you could argue that darkness only exists because of light.
[...]

Without darkness, a light would have no substance to differentiate it, and would simply be experienced as another indistinguishable part of nothing.
[...]
Darkness has no “existence”, darkness has no “substance”, it is not a “thing”.

The word “darkness” refers to the absence of a thing that does have substance and existence (light), but that does not mean it is a “thing” in itself.

Quote:

Isaiah 45:7 -- "I [the character of God described there in] create darkness
[...]
I guess you can say the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

A series of poetic parallels in Isaiah.
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Old Yesterday, 08:26 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,540 posts, read 4,548,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
Darkness has no “existence”, darkness has no “substance”, it is not a “thing”.

The word “darkness” refers to the absence of a thing that does have substance and existence (light), but that does not mean it is a “thing” in itself.



I guess you can say the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

A series of poetic parallels in Isaiah.
Poetic parallels where? In another chapter, 1000 words away, an image away? If a picture says a thousand words, then one thousand words paint a picture. And what a grotesque (and of course beloved) Picasso have the many different Abrahamic canons been.

Quote:
Isaiah 45

45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his Messiah, who is Cyrus. And his right hand I have held, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

If you are talking about visible and invisible EM Radiation having a substance, we'd be in agreement.

Darkness has as much "existence" as Risingness or Emptiness, even as much "existence" as Visibleness. It is a quality and an adjective which truly exists, in some ways, at some times.

Yet it is the eye and the mind which projects and models the existence of Visible Light. Just as some people are various types of color blind. Or how a gold and black dress cannot be differentiated from another person seeing it as a white and blue one. Illusions the plenty that have survived in replication with the genotypes and phenotypes. So then what is "light"? Is it X-rays, Microwaves? Is it only the rainbow but sometimes less and sometimes more?

Like I said previously, and maybe here the third time, there are blind people that when given sight by modern medical science newly discover darkness and black.

The eye of the beholder is the lamp of the body and the window to the psyche.

I'm sure the writers, publishers, and translators of Isaiah knew how to spell their phrase for "take away."

Given that their god is described as emerging from the "thick darkness" of heaven, having his face hidden in "dark clouds" we can assume that it is truly described as what is written: CREATING darkness and calamity for the benefit of the greater evil and weakness of its wrath.
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Old Today, 09:46 AM
 
367 posts, read 211,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
[...]

If you are talking about visible and invisible EM Radiation having a substance, we'd be in agreement.

Darkness has as much "existence" as Risingness or Emptiness, even as much "existence" as Visibleness. It is a quality and an adjective which truly exists, in some ways, at some times.

[...]
When you asked the question, “when did God create darkness?”, I thought you were referring to actual light and darkness. If you are talking about metaphorical light and darkness, which I guess is more in line with this thread, then we are just talking about poetry and metaphors.

Qualities and adjectives don’t exist separately from the subject they refer to. They are like parasitic concepts that disappear when the host disappears. They are attributes of something, but they are no-thing in and of themselves.

I think you are mixing statements about actual light and darkness (photons etc.), and metaphorical statements, or statements about the experience/perception of light. To me, mixing these various levels of discussion just leads to confusion, and leads to questions like asking when was darkness created.
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Old Today, 11:08 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,540 posts, read 4,548,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
When you asked the question, “when did God create darkness?”, I thought you were referring to actual light and darkness. If you are talking about metaphorical light and darkness, which I guess is more in line with this thread, then we are just talking about poetry and metaphors.

Qualities and adjectives don’t exist separately from the subject they refer to. They are like parasitic concepts that disappear when the host disappears. They are attributes of something, but they are no-thing in and of themselves.

I think you are mixing statements about actual light and darkness (photons etc.), and metaphorical statements, or statements about the experience/perception of light. To me, mixing these various levels of discussion just leads to confusion, and leads to questions like asking when was darkness created.

Various levels of discussion? Sorry, I was under the assumption that you were a Christian Bibliolater, and thought Yahweh/Jesus was trying to communicate something through writing. Are you trying to say that the OT doesn't teach (and didn't teach countless upon countless people) that God actually created the light we can see from the electromagnetic spectrum, and thus also the darkness we experience when we have signals from our ocular nerves reach the brain?

But do details lead to confusion? Like a big book can make people realize their own folly more then a single sentence could.

Still, no, I think the writers and publishers were saying that Yahweh actually created light and darkness, as similar but separate substances from "peace/good" and "evil/calamity" (not just a metaphorical single repitition of them) since Yahweh created "everything" and is "above" all. As such they are trying to say that "lack of light" did not exist as "darkness" with Yahweh before he created light AND darkness. Same with the spectrum of evil/calamity and good/peace not existing until he created them together. Thus, light and darkness are only used as metaphors because they are seen as a legitimate comparison.

As is seen, evil/calamity is certainly NOT the absence of good/prosperity/peace, although it can be at times, in certain ways.

The people of that time would have seen that the stars and moon technically bring "light" to everything, yet there is still darkness. A lamp brings light, yet although the light is not absent, there is darkness.
When the sunbeams shine bright in the sky, there is the darkness of shadow.

They wrote about these things (although at those points hating them, instead of seeing power in them like they did occasionally in the OT and Revelations): https://www.biblestudytools.com/topi...s-about-light/

Quote:
Psalm 97:2 – “[dark] clouds and thick darkness are all around him;”
Deuteronomy 5:22 "...God spoke in the mountain out of the fire, the [dark cloud], and thick darkness..."
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Old Today, 01:48 PM
 
367 posts, read 211,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Various levels of discussion? Sorry, I was under the assumption that you were a Christian Bibliolater...
[...]

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topi...s-about-light/
I’m sorry friend, i’m not sure what the topic is anymore.

That’s a good collection of verses at that link, thanks!
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Old Today, 06:30 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,540 posts, read 4,548,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
I’m sorry friend, i’m not sure what the topic is anymore.

That’s a good collection of verses at that link, thanks!
Ken_N.
Ignorance does not have to be your new best friend.

Quick summary.

The topic is "correlating God with light."

I also pointed out that the Jewish scriptures currently venerated by Christians correlate God with Yahweh and with darkness.

Then I had to explain to you that Yahweh is described as both creating light and darkness, not just removing darkness by creating light. Yahweh is described as the creator of everything, and as emerging from thick darkness. You tried to run around that argument in various ways, one of which was picking and choosing what dogma to keep in mind as if though this all was a cafeteria.


Quote:

Luke 11:35
Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.

Exodus 20:21
And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and thick darkness surround Him [God].

Psalm 104:20
You appoint darkness and it becomes night, in which all the beasts of the forest prowl about.

Psalm 139:12
Even the darkness is not dark to You [God], And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.

2 Samuel 22:12
And He made darkness canopies around Himself, A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

Jeremiah 4:28
"For this reason, the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above will be dark. Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it."

Job 9:7
Who commands the sun not to shine, And sets a dark seal upon the stars;

Isaiah 5:30
And it will growl over it in that day like the roaring of the sea If one looks to the land, behold, there is darkness and distress; Even the light is darkened by its clouds.

Isaiah 45:7
I am the one forming light and creating darkness, the one causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

Matthew 24:29
But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give off its light, and the stars will fall from the blanket of the sky-heavens, and the powers of the sky-heavens will be shaken.

Matthew 25:30
Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Genesis 15:12
Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram [Abraham]; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. [God had shown up]

Acts 2:20
The Sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
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