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Old 03-02-2019, 01:18 PM
 
50 posts, read 8,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I was starting to wonder that, too. I hardly ever respond to the 'God makes me feel good' posts (Miss Hepburn and the like. It just isn't an issue for me. Nor the 'best Pizz in the world' thread. I just prefer logic and evidence to ideas or beliefs that make me feel good. Others can go another way, and I am not going to argue with them.

When I get Evidence -claims (Like Mr Horton's Truth in the Bible post), I'm right in there.
Trans, I see where you're coming from. You have a very keen mind that analyzes and judges on evidence. The best man in my wedding is much like you. He's highly intelligent. His mind struggles to consider something that simply put---doesn't make sense. Or, as I said before, Using Mr. Spock---it's illogical.

He's an unbeliever. But, man, I love that guy like a brother.

Ok, to the point. Evidence. Hard Evidence.

In truth, I think either side of the argument would be hard pressed to present as such. Yes, I know, one side will argue "Yeah, but I'm closer or have more than you do" and so it goes.

From my side? First, you know the New Testament. You've read it. Jesus experienced the "show me a sign and I'll believe" mindset. To which He responded, none would be given.

So, how in the world can a rational individual believe something they cannot touch, smell, or even see?

The answer is in Hebrews. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen."

Well, the answer for me and many anyway. I can't pull Jesus out of my pocket, and I can't even pull my faith out of my pocket and put it in your hands...they're both in my heart and spirit. It's my Faith in those things unseen. Again, Jesus alluded to this...blessed are those that have not seen, yet believe.

That's why I resist debating religion. Evidence vs. Faith. It's probably a debate or argument that I'm not even called to dive into. As I've stated...I, in of myself, can't convince anybody of anything.

Finally, I openly admit. Do I struggle with this? Sure I do. As the man in Mark said, "I believe, forgive my unbelief!" My mind tells me...God is illogical...He does not compute. My heart and spirit say---oh, yes He does...He so does. Again Scripture spells it out---the mind wars against the spirit and the spirit against the mind. I said in another post...it's a daily decision.

There are so many things I don't yet understand about God and His ways. The Apostle Paul alluded to our time on earth like this..., we see through a glass darkly...now I know in part. The fullness of understanding comes later.

SO---I guess I have to rest on a quote attributed to Mark Twain..."It's not the things about the Bible that I don't understand that bothers me. It's the things that I do understand."
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:18 PM
 
8,577 posts, read 3,358,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Quite right. I noticed as a schoolkid that many of these aphorisms contradicted (I particularly liked 'Fine feathers make fine birds' and 'Fine feathers do not make fine birds' (the second is actually right - the first is just about Appearances). But the Bible is not supposed to be human pronouncements, but sayings that we can follow without dobt or question to gain eternal life. Not argue about.

Mind, these are just lesser (though significant) contradictions. There are much tougher ones that these. My line has gone beyond 'Look at all these contradictions! The Bible is not the word of God!" argument. Not only because 'human error' was an easy counter. It had to go further than that. What the contradictions tell us about how the Gospels (and Acts) were written, and why. And that will tell us who wrote them.
Well, and we can go full circle from there. If you believe "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting" (not the ridiculous misstatement that the proof is in the pudding!), then you can start from your experience with God (tasting the pudding) and then work back from there to learn the specifics of the Bible teachings and how the Bible came into print.

When you taste the pudding, and it's wonderful and tasty, then you might say this is really good pudding, the process and ingredients certainly work, can I have the recipe? What's in it?

Just as if you've been witness to a miracle that appears clearly to your heart from Yahweh, you might want to learn more about Christian faith and the back story.

So, I can say "that is mighty delicious pudding" without knowing the list of ingredients, or who prepared it.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:38 PM
 
12,009 posts, read 4,574,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Well, and we can go full circle from there. If you believe "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting" (not the ridiculous misstatement that the proof is in the pudding!), then you can start from your experience with God (tasting the pudding) and then work back from there to learn the specifics of the Bible teachings and how the Bible came into print.

When you taste the pudding, and it's wonderful and tasty, then you might say this is really good pudding, the process and ingredients certainly work, can I have the recipe? What's in it?

Just as if you've been witness to a miracle that appears clearly to your heart from Yahweh, you might want to learn more about Christian faith and the back story.

So, I can say "that is mighty delicious pudding" without knowing the list of ingredients, or who prepared it.
mighty fine pudding and the pudding rose from the dead are two quite different notions.

"we are born sinners and must eat pudding to be saved." thats a problem.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:39 PM
 
Location: USA
15,788 posts, read 7,904,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
In my belief, Everyman (including you, me and Hitler) is responsible for his choices made on free will.

We have the capacity to do a lot of bad things, and we also have the capacity to do a a lot of good things.

Itís then up to each one of us as to which route one wishes to take and how he sketches his painting till his time is up; the bell rings, and the last curtain falls on his eyes.

There is going to be a judgement day.

Good jobs will yield good results and bad choices could lead one into trouble.

Those who had tried their best to live a peaceful and a morally cautious life, will be happy and satisfied on that day; they wonít have any worry on their faces - and those who thought they were powerful kings who were above the law, or they were smart and cunning to dodge the system and do injustice to others, or they were rich enough to hire lawyers and got out of it etc, will be in a state state of deep worry. There will be no place to run and no where to hide, and no smart lawyers to hire.

Only and only our actions and our efforts will speak on our behalf.

And NO, we are not born with a sin and no person shall bear the burden of anyone else.
However, one of the things that makes us human is that we WILL make mistakes. But God is merciful.


When we make a mistake/sin, there are 3 things we need to do.

1 - Honestly repent and promise God that you will try your best not to do it again.
2 - If the sin involves doing injustice to another person then you must make up to them.
3 - Do an equally good deed to balance out the sin.


Does that guarantee that you wonít face the concequences of your bad actions and sins in Godís justice? No, it does not but it gives you HOPE.

God looks at our honest efforts.

And this is why it doesnít make sense to me if any theology provides a guaranteed spot in heaven to its followers in faith.

The true fact is, we donít really know whatís our destiny. We can only try our best till our destiny is revealed to us. However, Christianity and Judaism does not believe in it.
I think a lot of people think along these lines. I'll do the best I can and hope that God doesn't get too nitpicky with people like me. Those who I've judged to be worse than me in this lifetime will get what's coming to them in the next life.


I don't see it that way. Nor do I think one's religious beliefs or lack thereof matter one wit other than to the degree that they influence us for better or worse. And since I have personal experience with being a Christian who thought that we all need to believe Jesus died to save us from God's wrath in order for us not to be sentenced to an eternity of torment, and I know that belief did a lot of damage to me in innumerable ways, that's the belief I challenge. I challenge it on a pragmatic level (it can be a very destructive belief), and on the point that it is a self-contradictory belief system, ie. it makes no sense.



I do agree with you that we don't know our "destiny". No one can prove that there even is an "afterlife". But, if God is love, then there's nothing to fear from God, although some Christians assure us there is.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:49 PM
 
8,577 posts, read 3,358,174 times
Reputation: 21963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
mighty fine pudding and the pudding rose from the dead are two quite different notions.

"we are born sinners and must eat pudding to be saved." thats a problem.
I think you missed the analogy.

My statement refers to devout Christians who may not necessarily be able to answer questions of Bible history, or Bible teachings, but they've felt the presence of Yahweh in their heart.

I don't need to know when the Bible was written, necessarily, to say I know for sure Yahweh dwells in me.
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:01 PM
 
38,611 posts, read 25,992,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I think a lot of people think along these lines. I'll do the best I can and hope that God doesn't get too nitpicky with people like me. Those who I've judged to be worse than me in this lifetime will get what's coming to them in the next life.

I don't see it that way. Nor do I think one's religious beliefs or lack thereof matter one wit other than to the degree that they influence us for better or worse. And since I have personal experience with being a Christian who thought that we all need to believe Jesus died to save us from God's wrath in order for us not to be sentenced to an eternity of torment, and I know that belief did a lot of damage to me in innumerable ways, that's the belief I challenge. I challenge it on a pragmatic level (it can be a very destructive belief), and on the point that it is a self-contradictory belief system, ie. it makes no sense.

I do agree with you that we don't know our "destiny". No one can prove that there even is an "afterlife". But, if God is love, then there's nothing to fear from God, although some Christians assure us there is.
I suspect your witness is extremely helpful to those whose hearts are like yours and suffer under the fear of God belief. God IS agape love and there can be no fear in love.
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:05 PM
 
12,009 posts, read 4,574,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I think you missed the analogy.

My statement refers to devout Christians who may not necessarily be able to answer questions of Bible history, or Bible teachings, but they've felt the presence of Yahweh in their heart.

I don't need to know when the Bible was written, necessarily, to say I know for sure Yahweh dwells in me.
yeah, i get the analogy and i am even fine with the christian narrative. I I even say you did feel the presence. Its just not what you think it is. But it looks like t may have some of the traits of life.

I am not fine with magic and teaching that we are sinners. its bad mojo.
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:49 PM
 
50 posts, read 8,372 times
Reputation: 18
Calling Transponder....Come in Transponder...

Ok, so...I've been thinking about you and your desire for debate. Now, several posts above, I've given my reasons for non interest in debating all things religion.

Yet,in a short period of time, I've kinda come to like you. And, I hope and think we've developed at least a basic respect for each other even if your IQ is higher than mine and we're polar opposites in our beliefs. You're "well spoken" and I like that.

That being said...how about this?

We stick to a single question. You ask me a whatever question about God or my beliefs. I respond. You get a rebuttal and, most likely, that ends that topic. There could be an occasional exception but, probably rarely for all the reasons I listed in that "War and Peace" length post above.

Interested? Your call.
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:53 PM
 
Location: minnesota
6,016 posts, read 1,931,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Calling Transponder....Come in Transponder...

Ok, so...I've been thinking about you and your desire for debate. Now, several posts above, I've given my reasons for non interest in debating all things religion.

Yet,in a short period of time, I've kinda come to like you. And, I hope and think we've developed at least a basic respect for each other even if your IQ is higher than mine and we're polar opposites in our beliefs. You're "well spoken" and I like that.

That being said...how about this?

We stick to a single question. You ask me a whatever question about God or my beliefs. I respond. You get a rebuttal and, most likely, that ends that topic. There could be an occasional exception but, probably rarely for all the reasons I listed in that "War and Peace" length post above.

Interested? Your call.
Can we all play? I'd like to know why you believe your way is the only way (if that is ,in fact, your belief). Are you resistant to accepting that other cultures and people might have different ways of expressing this saving Grace?
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:53 PM
 
8,577 posts, read 3,358,174 times
Reputation: 21963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
yeah, i get the analogy and i am even fine with the christian narrative. I I even say you did feel the presence. Its just not what you think it is. But it looks like t may have some of the traits of life.

I am not fine with magic and teaching that we are sinners. its bad mojo.
I would be very comfortable with your post if you put "In my opinion" before the bolded part.
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