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Old Yesterday, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,442 posts, read 9,967,578 times
Reputation: 2493

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and Rafe suffer from the same mistaken beliefs about God based on Fundamentalist premises.
AS long as I don't suffer from the same mistake that you make I am more than happy.
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Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,652 posts, read 3,236,852 times
Reputation: 3973
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Having said that, I've also noted one other thing...and I see it often. Arrogance, Pride, Conceit is rampant. I've seen rudeness, I've seen lambasting and abusing, I've seen something, at least, approaching hatred.

I've seen it from atheists and...I've seen it from those identifying themselves as Christians.
Hello, CV.

There is a lot - and I do mean a lot - of ground to cover here and I certainly won't cram it all into one post. I will, however, point out the highlights.

I don't know whose posts you read, how old they are, and how far back you went. But you have to understand that some of the feuds back then go back even further than you probably did. No doubt *most* discussions began politely and without rudeness. But - when it comes to topics like this, the longer the discussion continues, the more inevitable rudeness becomes.

As someone who has been around here awhile - what, 5+ years or so - what you read is just the nature of the beast when it comes to debates on religion. Somewhere along the way, people's skin has grown so thin that you can see through it.

In addition - how do you tell the difference between pride and arrogance and someone who is simply confident in their correctness? Religion is one of those topics where there is zero concession from either side. Why? Because religion is an absolute, which is one of the things I despise about religion. You can't compromise your beliefs without saying, "Yeah, maybe there is no god after all!" or "Yeah, maybe I should take a second look at religion and join a church." Ya know?

Therefore, people really believe what they say. In the case of religion, it's even worse because most believers I've argued with have internalized their religious belief so thoroughly that insulting the belief is exactly the same as insulting the believer. Hence, they get angry and accuse atheists of a plethora of personal attacks that were never made to begin with. I know that from loads of personal experience, too.

Unless you want to argue endlessly over religious minutiae like whether or not Nazareth was a real town or whether so-and-so's cloak was violet or purple, discussions get heated.

What's important is if, after all is said and done, people can get along beyond a debate about religion.

Most of the Christians I've gone after are those who advocate for a Christian country - and a desire to turn our liberal democracy into an oppressive theocratic state with very little personal freedom. Some deny that's what they want, but what they say in their posts says something completely different.

As I have said many times - if Christians did not try to oppress the rights of others, force their immoral holy book on the rest of us, try to indoctrinate public school students into the faith and use schools as a second church, inhibit science and the progress of humanity through proactive attempts at getting society to reject and deny scientific facts that are demonstrably true, and respected the Constituton of the USA by allowing everyone the freedom to express their opinions (instead of snarky comments like, "This forum is for spirituality and religion - atheists shouldn't even be posting here), then we atheists wouldn't have a lot to say against religion.

But ever since religion organized and turned political - now with churches having a free hand to tell their congregations who to vote for - religion has become the biggest scourge this nation has ever faced. I'm sure you disagree - or maybe you'll surprise me and agree with me. But when these cease being mere academic debates and instead we realize that these issues genuinely affect our lives, our freedoms, our families, and our communities, approaching them with an emotionless, calm, and stoic demeanor is next to impossible.

What I find irksome too is how often myself and many other atheists here have been accused of "hating" Christians - and no matter how often you tell them that just isn't true, it doesn't matter. One of the most infuriating things to say to an atheist is, "I'm Christian and I'm being persecuted." To our ears, it's like listening to a spoiled brat throw a fit because they have to take the Jaguar to school instead of the Rolls Royce because the Rolls is in the shop. Trust me, it is the atheists who are persecuted - as well as the entirety of the LGBT community - and Muslims - and pretty much anyone who isn't a member of their church. Granted, this applies on a societal level, so please don't make the mistake that I'm talking about every single Christian living or dead.

I have encountered several Christians on this very board who aren't much better than the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, or ISIS. Sure, they may not be slaughtering non-believers, but I can guarantee were it not for our secular laws, people just like them would be hunting down and murdering gays even as we speak. Because, you know, Deuteronomy says to do that.

As an immigrant to this country - USA - I am both passionate and vocal whenever I feel our freedoms are being threatened. And there is no bigger a threat to freedom than religion. At least in this nation.

I don't know what it's like around here these days. But the majority of "hatred" I've seen has been blown out of all proportion to what was actually said. From my side of things, certain Christians love taking the smallest ball and running with it, turning the slightest perceived insult into the worst thing since 9/11. No doubt Christians have their own version of events, but that's what I've seen from my vantage.

I've always considered debate on a forum like a mosh pit. You jump in and you mix it up. Sometimes you might get whacked with a fist or kicked in the shin - but you just keep on moshing. You don't jump around crying that someone hit you - accidentally or otherwise - and go tattle. That doesn't mean there should be crazy amounts of flame wars, personal insults, hate threads, and the like - but - there are two extremes on every issue, know what I mean? As a former admin on several forums, I've watched many a forum dry up because there was no, hmm, fire. No personality. No style.

Anyway, like I said - I could go on and on about this because there's a lot to it. But I'll just end it here. Take care.
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Old Yesterday, 07:51 AM
 
8,428 posts, read 3,317,863 times
Reputation: 21735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Complete and utter balderdash. The NT contains the 'teachings' of the Christian man-god Jesus. Those teachings are universal and meant for ALL of you to follow so that you be 'good Christians, not just to those that your man-god is directly speaking to at the time. When your man god says that one should 'turn the other cheek' or 'if someone takes your coat, give them your shirt too' or 'if someone takes your things do not try to get them back' or 'sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor', they are universal teaching showing what you have to do to be 'Christlike' or a good Christian. If that were not the case then Christians would be spending all their time wondering about what teaching applies to them, which applies to everyone and which applies only to the person Jesus is speaking to. Is the 'Sermon on the Mount' only meant for those that were being spoken to? Is [i]'Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you' only for those who were there being spoken to? Of course not! They are the teachings of your man-god which are meant to teach you how to be a good Christian.

Convenient indeed.

No. By your thinking, that would only be the disciples...because they were the ones he said it to...right?



ABSOLUTELY the disciples were called to "make nuisances of themselves". At least 8 of them were martyred, with at least two of those being crucified, as was Jesus. They were nuisances of the highest order - telling the common people they were as worthy as the leaders, and that the last shall be first and the humble exalted. "Tell the rabble to be quiet we anticipate a riot, this common crowd, is MUCH TOO LOUD" - Jesus Christ Superstar

This is what I'm called to:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect… – 1 Peter 3:15
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Old Yesterday, 07:52 AM
 
36,454 posts, read 9,847,905 times
Reputation: 4923
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Since you left it "wide open"...I will address Christians vs. Atheists from the most significant aspect relative to "how this world is".
In "The Arena of World Merit and Influence"...Christians vs. Atheists is like The Red Sox vs. A Little League team with a losing record.
Well, actually that is an insult to Little League teams with losing records...but most will be hip to the reality of it.
Your observations have been noted and filed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and Rafe suffer from the same mistaken beliefs about God based on Fundamentalist premises.
The mistake is yours. We can only address one or two Theist claims, not all of them. The theist (if they want to counter the atheist debunk of this or that Theist or religious claim, have to say what they claim (roughly, with modifications later on). If they don't we just have to pick the most usual ones. I'm sure you will see what a crock it would be for theism to never say what they claim and then say athe atheists have never refuted them.
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Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM
 
36,454 posts, read 9,847,905 times
Reputation: 4923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Hello, CV.

There is a lot - and I do mean a lot - of ground to cover here and I certainly won't cram it all into one post. I will, however, point out the highlights.

I don't know whose posts you read, how old they are, and how far back you went. But you have to understand that some of the feuds back then go back even further than you probably did. No doubt *most* discussions began politely and without rudeness. But - when it comes to topics like this, the longer the discussion continues, the more inevitable rudeness becomes.

As someone who has been around here awhile - what, 5+ years or so - what you read is just the nature of the beast when it comes to debates on religion. Somewhere along the way, people's skin has grown so thin that you can see through it.

In addition - how do you tell the difference between pride and arrogance and someone who is simply confident in their correctness? Religion is one of those topics where there is zero concession from either side. Why? Because religion is an absolute, which is one of the things I despise about religion. You can't compromise your beliefs without saying, "Yeah, maybe there is no god after all!" or "Yeah, maybe I should take a second look at religion and join a church." Ya know?

Therefore, people really believe what they say. In the case of religion, it's even worse because most believers I've argued with have internalized their religious belief so thoroughly that insulting the belief is exactly the same as insulting the believer. Hence, they get angry and accuse atheists of a plethora of personal attacks that were never made to begin with. I know that from loads of personal experience, too.

Unless you want to argue endlessly over religious minutiae like whether or not Nazareth was a real town or whether so-and-so's cloak was violet or purple, discussions get heated.

What's important is if, after all is said and done, people can get along beyond a debate about religion.

Most of the Christians I've gone after are those who advocate for a Christian country - and a desire to turn our liberal democracy into an oppressive theocratic state with very little personal freedom. Some deny that's what they want, but what they say in their posts says something completely different.

As I have said many times - if Christians did not try to oppress the rights of others, force their immoral holy book on the rest of us, try to indoctrinate public school students into the faith and use schools as a second church, inhibit science and the progress of humanity through proactive attempts at getting society to reject and deny scientific facts that are demonstrably true, and respected the Constituton of the USA by allowing everyone the freedom to express their opinions (instead of snarky comments like, "This forum is for spirituality and religion - atheists shouldn't even be posting here), then we atheists wouldn't have a lot to say against religion.

But ever since religion organized and turned political - now with churches having a free hand to tell their congregations who to vote for - religion has become the biggest scourge this nation has ever faced. I'm sure you disagree - or maybe you'll surprise me and agree with me. But when these cease being mere academic debates and instead we realize that these issues genuinely affect our lives, our freedoms, our families, and our communities, approaching them with an emotionless, calm, and stoic demeanor is next to impossible.

What I find irksome too is how often myself and many other atheists here have been accused of "hating" Christians - and no matter how often you tell them that just isn't true, it doesn't matter. One of the most infuriating things to say to an atheist is, "I'm Christian and I'm being persecuted." To our ears, it's like listening to a spoiled brat throw a fit because they have to take the Jaguar to school instead of the Rolls Royce because the Rolls is in the shop. Trust me, it is the atheists who are persecuted - as well as the entirety of the LGBT community - and Muslims - and pretty much anyone who isn't a member of their church. Granted, this applies on a societal level, so please don't make the mistake that I'm talking about every single Christian living or dead.

I have encountered several Christians on this very board who aren't much better than the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, or ISIS. Sure, they may not be slaughtering non-believers, but I can guarantee were it not for our secular laws, people just like them would be hunting down and murdering gays even as we speak. Because, you know, Deuteronomy says to do that.

As an immigrant to this country - USA - I am both passionate and vocal whenever I feel our freedoms are being threatened. And there is no bigger a threat to freedom than religion. At least in this nation.

I don't know what it's like around here these days. But the majority of "hatred" I've seen has been blown out of all proportion to what was actually said. From my side of things, certain Christians love taking the smallest ball and running with it, turning the slightest perceived insult into the worst thing since 9/11. No doubt Christians have their own version of events, but that's what I've seen from my vantage.

I've always considered debate on a forum like a mosh pit. You jump in and you mix it up. Sometimes you might get whacked with a fist or kicked in the shin - but you just keep on moshing. You don't jump around crying that someone hit you - accidentally or otherwise - and go tattle. That doesn't mean there should be crazy amounts of flame wars, personal insults, hate threads, and the like - but - there are two extremes on every issue, know what I mean? As a former admin on several forums, I've watched many a forum dry up because there was no, hmm, fire. No personality. No style.

Anyway, like I said - I could go on and on about this because there's a lot to it. But I'll just end it here. Take care.
She's back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsBByTiKfyY

Cv is very, very recent, here. This is his first Own thread, and I do hope it can get back to His Subject rather than an overspill of various apologetics brawls on other threads or some general chat over tea and biscuits.
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Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,442 posts, read 9,967,578 times
Reputation: 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
ABSOLUTELY the disciples were called to "make nuisances of themselves".
...but not Christians.

Quote:
At least 8 of them were martyred, with at least two of those being crucified, as was Jesus. ...
According to your Bible and we know how unreliable that is. The problem you have is this...
1. You have no verifiable evidence that your disciples ever lived.
2. As such you have no verifiable evidence that they died.
3. If they did live, you have no verifiable evidence that they died as martyrs. I could be that they were given no choice in the matter.

...and the rest of my post? You missed it out.

Last edited by Rafius; Yesterday at 08:22 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 08:13 AM
 
36,454 posts, read 9,847,905 times
Reputation: 4923
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
ABSOLUTELY the disciples were called to "make nuisances of themselves". At least 8 of them were martyred, with at least two of those being crucified, as was Jesus. They were nuisances of the highest order - telling the common people they were as worthy as the leaders, and that the last shall be first and the humble exalted. "Tell the rabble to be quiet we anticipate a riot, this common crowd, is MUCH TOO LOUD" - Jesus Christ Superstar

This is what I'm called to:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect… – 1 Peter 3:15
That's at least what the Church claims. As far as i can recall, the only disciple -killings I recall are the sons of Zebedee killed by Herod Agrippa. This is in Acts written by Luke from whom I would never buy a used car.

What I'm saying is that we don't know that ANY of the disciples were martyred for 'making nuisances of themselves' whatever the argument about that was.

In fact I don't mind anyone making a nuisance of themselves as distinct from being an abuser or vandal) so long as they are saying something valid (especially in the way you quote - which we godless bastards don't get very often). I only get a bit annoyed when their point gets batted down and they pop up later saying it all over again.
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Old Yesterday, 08:19 AM
 
11,920 posts, read 4,559,028 times
Reputation: 1273
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Your observations have been noted and filed.



The mistake is yours. We can only address one or two Theist claims, not all of them. The theist (if they want to counter the atheist debunk of this or that Theist or religious claim, have to say what they claim (roughly, with modifications later on). If they don't we just have to pick the most usual ones. I'm sure you will see what a crock it would be for theism to never say what they claim and then say athe atheists have never refuted them.
this is a load of nonsense.

exactly what you think we should be doing. never offer a counter claim so that we never can be wrong. You move the goal post, you don't have a goal post. and you claim "we never miss" either because they were moved, they weren't there, or you never kicked.

good for you trans. ran away and hide behind this nonsense. and wait till the person passes so you can strike from the back. well, unless they have the same t-shirt color ... then they can pass, no matter how many they have hurt or are going to hurt for you sect of atheism.
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Old Yesterday, 08:30 AM
 
36,454 posts, read 9,847,905 times
Reputation: 4923
Garbage old son. I hardly need to say why. It is unarguable that we can only address the common Christian claims or pick a few at random unless particular claims are made. The rest of your post is just raving and frothing.

Bit quiet here. Must be Sunday.
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Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,564 posts, read 659,686 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
ABSOLUTELY the disciples were called to "make nuisances of themselves". At least 8 of them were martyred, with at least two of those being crucified, as was Jesus. They were nuisances of the highest order - telling the common people they were as worthy as the leaders, and that the last shall be first and the humble exalted. "Tell the rabble to be quiet we anticipate a riot, this common crowd, is MUCH TOO LOUD" - Jesus Christ Superstar

This is what I'm called to:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect… – 1 Peter 3:15
Allegedly 11 were killed, some of them more than once. And when you read the accounts of how they died, none of them died for Jesus.

Even the author of Mark was killed 3 times, in 3 different places at 3 different times.
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