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The extant primitive interpretations may be silly but that does not make the ubiquitous Savior template across eras, cultures, nations, and generations invalid.
As I see it, the savior template comes from those people in various times and cultures whose mindset has "risen above" their own time and culture to the extent that they have had a great impact on moving people in a positive direction.
As I see it, the savior template comes from those people in various times and cultures whose mindset has "risen above" their own time and culture to the extent that they have had a great impact on moving people in a positive direction.
.....Therefore, people really believe what they say. In the case of religion, it's even worse because most believers I've argued with have internalized their religious belief so thoroughly that insulting the belief is exactly the same as insulting the believer. Hence, they get angry and accuse atheists of a plethora of personal attacks that were never made to begin with. I know that from loads of personal experience, too.....
This is a key observation. I see it all the time, online and in person... including from the most thoughtful, open, self-aware people. "Your argument does not make sense" or "that is a weak argument" is heard as "YOU do not make sense" or "YOU are weak"... and reflected back as an insult or attack on the person themselves. It's hard to get anywhere from there.
[P.S., and welcome back to Shirina!]
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 03-03-2019 at 09:21 AM..
How many Christians who only want Christianity have you refuted lately?
I mean, despite being a pantheist - if I remember correctly - you seem awfully willing to go to bat for any Christian team.
to answer your question ... everyone I encounter.
I got to bat for all claims. I weigh all claims against the standard model and liberty and justice for all people under the resource limitations we have.
I have no interest in a statement of belief about god and/or religion past freedom of religion stances demonstrate an emotional and intellectual maturity of a group of people.
As I see it, the savior template comes from those people in various times and cultures whose mindset has "risen above" their own time and culture to the extent that they have had a great impact on moving people in a positive direction.
also, there had to be something the people in power had to answer to. The regular population has to think the leaders are being held to the same standard for society to work.
There is a lot - and I do mean a lot - of ground to cover here and I certainly won't cram it all into one post. I will, however, point out the highlights.
I don't know whose posts you read, how old they are, and how far back you went. But you have to understand that some of the feuds back then go back even further than you probably did. No doubt *most* discussions began politely and without rudeness. But - when it comes to topics like this, the longer the discussion continues, the more inevitable rudeness becomes.
As someone who has been around here awhile - what, 5+ years or so - what you read is just the nature of the beast when it comes to debates on religion. Somewhere along the way, people's skin has grown so thin that you can see through it.
In addition - how do you tell the difference between pride and arrogance and someone who is simply confident in their correctness? Religion is one of those topics where there is zero concession from either side. Why? Because religion is an absolute, which is one of the things I despise about religion. You can't compromise your beliefs without saying, "Yeah, maybe there is no god after all!" or "Yeah, maybe I should take a second look at religion and join a church." Ya know?
Therefore, people really believe what they say. In the case of religion, it's even worse because most believers I've argued with have internalized their religious belief so thoroughly that insulting the belief is exactly the same as insulting the believer. Hence, they get angry and accuse atheists of a plethora of personal attacks that were never made to begin with. I know that from loads of personal experience, too.
Unless you want to argue endlessly over religious minutiae like whether or not Nazareth was a real town or whether so-and-so's cloak was violet or purple, discussions get heated.
What's important is if, after all is said and done, people can get along beyond a debate about religion.
Most of the Christians I've gone after are those who advocate for a Christian country - and a desire to turn our liberal democracy into an oppressive theocratic state with very little personal freedom. Some deny that's what they want, but what they say in their posts says something completely different.
As I have said many times - if Christians did not try to oppress the rights of others, force their immoral holy book on the rest of us, try to indoctrinate public school students into the faith and use schools as a second church, inhibit science and the progress of humanity through proactive attempts at getting society to reject and deny scientific facts that are demonstrably true, and respected the Constituton of the USA by allowing everyone the freedom to express their opinions (instead of snarky comments like, "This forum is for spirituality and religion - atheists shouldn't even be posting here), then we atheists wouldn't have a lot to say against religion.
But ever since religion organized and turned political - now with churches having a free hand to tell their congregations who to vote for - religion has become the biggest scourge this nation has ever faced. I'm sure you disagree - or maybe you'll surprise me and agree with me. But when these cease being mere academic debates and instead we realize that these issues genuinely affect our lives, our freedoms, our families, and our communities, approaching them with an emotionless, calm, and stoic demeanor is next to impossible.
What I find irksome too is how often myself and many other atheists here have been accused of "hating" Christians - and no matter how often you tell them that just isn't true, it doesn't matter. One of the most infuriating things to say to an atheist is, "I'm Christian and I'm being persecuted." To our ears, it's like listening to a spoiled brat throw a fit because they have to take the Jaguar to school instead of the Rolls Royce because the Rolls is in the shop. Trust me, it is the atheists who are persecuted - as well as the entirety of the LGBT community - and Muslims - and pretty much anyone who isn't a member of their church. Granted, this applies on a societal level, so please don't make the mistake that I'm talking about every single Christian living or dead.
I have encountered several Christians on this very board who aren't much better than the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, or ISIS. Sure, they may not be slaughtering non-believers, but I can guarantee were it not for our secular laws, people just like them would be hunting down and murdering gays even as we speak. Because, you know, Deuteronomy says to do that.
As an immigrant to this country - USA - I am both passionate and vocal whenever I feel our freedoms are being threatened. And there is no bigger a threat to freedom than religion. At least in this nation.
I don't know what it's like around here these days. But the majority of "hatred" I've seen has been blown out of all proportion to what was actually said. From my side of things, certain Christians love taking the smallest ball and running with it, turning the slightest perceived insult into the worst thing since 9/11. No doubt Christians have their own version of events, but that's what I've seen from my vantage.
I've always considered debate on a forum like a mosh pit. You jump in and you mix it up. Sometimes you might get whacked with a fist or kicked in the shin - but you just keep on moshing. You don't jump around crying that someone hit you - accidentally or otherwise - and go tattle. That doesn't mean there should be crazy amounts of flame wars, personal insults, hate threads, and the like - but - there are two extremes on every issue, know what I mean? As a former admin on several forums, I've watched many a forum dry up because there was no, hmm, fire. No personality. No style.
Anyway, like I said - I could go on and on about this because there's a lot to it. But I'll just end it here. Take care.
And then there are the twisted, like me, that dig the clawing and scratching...and like to bask in it.
Great to see you here Shirina!...the board has been diminished without you.
also, there had to be something the people in power had to answer to. The regular population has to think the leaders are being held to the same standard for society to work.
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Hello, CV.
In addition - how do you tell the difference between pride and arrogance and someone who is simply confident in their correctness? Religion is one of those topics where there is zero concession from either side. Why? Because religion is an absolute, which is one of the things I despise about religion. You can't compromise your beliefs without saying, "Yeah, maybe there is no god after all!" or "Yeah, maybe I should take a second look at religion and join a church." Ya know?
Therefore, people really believe what they say. In the case of religion, it's even worse because most believers I've argued with have internalized their religious belief so thoroughly that insulting the belief is exactly the same as insulting the believer. Hence, they get angry and accuse atheists of a plethora of personal attacks that were never made to begin with. I know that from loads of personal experience, too.
Unless you want to argue endlessly over religious minutiae like whether or not Nazareth was a real town or whether so-and-so's cloak was violet or purple, discussions get heated.
In response to the first bolded part, here's why Christians can't say yeah, maybe Yahweh is a figment of my imagination. NO ONE who believes this wants the consequences of being denied before the Father.
Matthew 10:33 (ASV) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
And to the second part. Yes, for believers, it's personal. What if I said to you, "your daughter looks like a toad", and then I wondered why you were so sensitive about that? I mean, you can't even mention that the girl looks like a toad without getting Shirina upset. It's not like I said Shirina herself looks like a toad, or said it disrespectfully! I thought we could have a civil discussion about it, but I guess not.
Last edited by ClaraC; 03-03-2019 at 12:05 PM..
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