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Old Today, 05:08 AM
 
Location: TX
6,493 posts, read 5,122,298 times
Reputation: 2608

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Christians...if you are truly a Christian...simply put--grow up and go back to Scripture. Your arrogance, pride, "holier than thou" attitude is an abomination.
I agree, and to my fellow NON-believers, I would say we should hold ourselves to the same standard. I understand (and respect) that some people attribute their good deeds, and attitudes, to god. That's fine. But those of us who can only attribute our behaviors to ourselves should, well, behave.

So I guess I would echo this message to atheists... minus all the "scripture" and "abomination" talk
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Old Today, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,442 posts, read 9,967,578 times
Reputation: 2493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I agree, and to my fellow NON-believers, ...
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Old Today, 06:39 AM
 
Location: TX
6,493 posts, read 5,122,298 times
Reputation: 2608
Yes?
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Old Today, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,442 posts, read 9,967,578 times
Reputation: 2493
I was laughing at 'fellow non-believers'. Very funny! Made me laugh out loud.
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Old Today, 07:48 AM
 
8,434 posts, read 3,317,863 times
Reputation: 21741
The whole argument about you are saved by Belief, not Good Works.

This is a hard concept, and a fine line, but I think you need to come at it from the other end. The core nugget is, people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, will NOT be murdering people. You CAN NOT say you're a Believer, but have no outside manifestations - Good works - of your Christian Faith. You can't say yes, Lord,
Lord, I believe, while you're robbing people at knifepoint
.

Here's the best verse that describes it, from Paul's Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 8:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This verse, this concept, is to keep people who are clearly non believers from thinking they can get out their notebook and make a long list of good works they will do, and that will be their resume to get to Heaven. Give generously to the poor. Check. Work 3 days a week at the food bank. Check. Give my coat to the homeless guy on the corner. Check. Don't hurt people. Check.

Thereby, they could brag that they don't need God, they don't need to Believe, they're getting themselves in on their own steam, thank you very much! That's not what Paul states God wants.

It's like parenting. What do you need to do to be an excellent parent? Well, you can check off the boxes. Bathe the child, feed the child, get her to school, monitor and correct behavior, etc.

But how about if we covered that with love that child fiercely, more than you love yourself? That love will ensure the behaviors that will make you an excellent parent.

A parent can't really say, "what if I love my child fiercely, but I don't manifest that love in Good Works? I leave him out in the cold, refuse to feed him, let my boyfriend beat him?" By loving my child fiercely, I'm a good parent?

Then, you don't love your child fiercely, hon. You're just pretending. It's obvious you DON'T love your child.

The key is - if you have accepted the Grace of Jesus Christ of Nazareth into your heart, you will be doing the things He has instructed. So you will have both acts AND Grace, where non believers have only acts.

It's obvious if you aren't doing the Acts, you aren't a Follower.

Last edited by ClaraC; Today at 08:15 AM..
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Old Today, 08:06 AM
 
8,434 posts, read 3,317,863 times
Reputation: 21741
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
This is actually something which never made sense to me, even as a kid. A person can essentially do what they want (even murder) - but in theory, in the end if you ‘accept Jesus as your savior’, you are ‘free’. So what’s the point - or any benefit, to people living a life of Christianity? (And it seems like such a shallow goal/objective compared to any ‘sin’ such as murder, etc.).

I think many people believe in Christianity as sort of a built-in self help ‘book’. It makes it easier for some people to have something to lean on (and something to look forward to) rather than accepting this is all there is.
I believe you're referring to the Parable of the Workers, from the Book of Matthew. Where the vineyard owner agreed to give vineyard workers a denarius for a day of pay. The key here, is that a denarius is a very generous amount, and they were thrilled to work for that amount. So they happily go off to labor. The owner then hired others throughout the day, some as late as 5 p.m., near quitting time. ALL were given a denarius, starting with the very last ones hired were paid first. The workers who worked all day, were angry and protested that those who came at the end were paid the same wage as the faithful who had been there all day.

Jesus responded:

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

To our capitalist minds, that seems patently unfair. But Jesus was the biggest liberal to walk the Planet Earth, and this is fair to him. As in the Prodigal Son, and the Parable of the Lost Lamb, the Shepherd desperately loves the one who is lost and then found. A son who is gone and then returns and is greeted with a huge party that the son who has been there the whole time didn't get. And Jesus has a special place in His heart for the last to arrive in His vineyard workforce.

While that may seem unfair to some, the Promise of Heaven is a huge promise - it's more than we've earned. That others get the Promise coming late in life, while others have been faithful Food Soldiers for Jesus their whole lives and we all receive the Bounty of Heaven just the same, we are ALL being paid more than we earned.

Last edited by ClaraC; Today at 08:18 AM..
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Old Today, 09:08 AM
Status: "Mostly gruntled." (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
24,722 posts, read 12,794,891 times
Reputation: 11351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
I was laughing at 'fellow non-believers'. Very funny! Made me laugh out loud.
He needs to occasionally remind people he's pretending to be an atheist.
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Old Today, 10:33 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
872 posts, read 176,385 times
Reputation: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I believe you're referring to the Parable of the Workers, from the Book of Matthew. Where the vineyard owner agreed to give vineyard workers a denarius for a day of pay. The key here, is that a denarius is a very generous amount, and they were thrilled to work for that amount. So they happily go off to labor. The owner then hired others throughout the day, some as late as 5 p.m., near quitting time. ALL were given a denarius, starting with the very last ones hired were paid first. The workers who worked all day, were angry and protested that those who came at the end were paid the same wage as the faithful who had been there all day.

.
Actually, no - I was referring to my own disbelief in any god (and how certain concepts of religion seemed ridiculous to me, even as a child).

My time is limited - I don’t read ‘preaching’ posts (from either side). I prefer ‘discussion’.
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Old Today, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
20,598 posts, read 9,657,781 times
Reputation: 19432
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
The whole argument about you are saved by Belief, not Good Works.

This is a hard concept, and a fine line, but I think you need to come at it from the other end. The core nugget is, people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, will NOT be murdering people. You CAN NOT say you're a Believer, but have no outside manifestations - Good works - of your Christian Faith. You can't say yes, Lord,
Lord, I believe, while you're robbing people at knifepoint
.

Here's the best verse that describes it, from Paul's Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 8:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This verse, this concept, is to keep people who are clearly non believers from thinking they can get out their notebook and make a long list of good works they will do, and that will be their resume to get to Heaven. Give generously to the poor. Check. Work 3 days a week at the food bank. Check. Give my coat to the homeless guy on the corner. Check. Don't hurt people. Check.

Thereby, they could brag that they don't need God, they don't need to Believe, they're getting themselves in on their own steam, thank you very much! That's not what Paul states God wants.

It's like parenting. What do you need to do to be an excellent parent? Well, you can check off the boxes. Bathe the child, feed the child, get her to school, monitor and correct behavior, etc.

But how about if we covered that with love that child fiercely, more than you love yourself? That love will ensure the behaviors that will make you an excellent parent.

A parent can't really say, "what if I love my child fiercely, but I don't manifest that love in Good Works? I leave him out in the cold, refuse to feed him, let my boyfriend beat him?" By loving my child fiercely, I'm a good parent?

Then, you don't love your child fiercely, hon. You're just pretending. It's obvious you DON'T love your child.

The key is - if you have accepted the Grace of Jesus Christ of Nazareth into your heart, you will be doing the things He has instructed. So you will have both acts AND Grace, where non believers have only acts.

It's obvious if you aren't doing the Acts, you aren't a Follower.
So essentially you're saying that real christians don't do bad things. Then I think you christians need to reduce your grandiose estimations of the number of christians in this country.
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Old Today, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,564 posts, read 659,686 times
Reputation: 574
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Science keeps changing, so you can never really trust it. Good luck finding any scientist on skeptic side who will ever acknowledge this.
Build those men of straw, and wheee, knock them down. Build those men of straw, and wheee, knock them down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
At least religion has worked using the same texts for millennia (in some cases). You can read the Psalms and Proverbs today and replace "THE LORD" with your preferred entity or idea, and everything in it is still true.
Except that is not true for MOST religious texts. Shall we play spot Ozzy's fallacy?
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