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Oh yeah. I was once on a road trip down around Charlottesville and they were stopping every car to check because of an escaped convict. The sheriff I was talking to did a better job at portraying stereotypical Old South police than Buford T. Justice. But Virginia is, in many ways, a wonderful state. Glad you like it, too.
I think the pizza analogy is a brilliant one. Though not a perfect one of course......
First, a pair of disclosures/disclaimers....
I love pizza. I am also fond of sprinkling my conversation and my teaching with analogies.
The problem is, I have yet to see an analogy on this forum (and not just on this thread) that does the job, when the point is to show us how faith/belief/religion work. On another thread, we were informed that every one of us exercises blind faith, every time we step on a ladder, or take an airplane flight, or swallow a medicine. We don't independently verify those ladders or airplanes or medicines, it was argued... therefore that is analogous to putting our faith in unseen beings and unknowable futures. In yet another thread, warning a child about the threat of eternal damnation in hell was equated to warning children about the dangers of hot stoves, busy streets and mean dogs. And now we have pizza, as an allusion to the heart warming (or at least stomach filling?) experience of believers.
Each of those analogies share one thing in common, and on that one thing they all fail. THEY ARE ALL FOUND IN REAL LIFE. They are demonstrably and verifiably real, and each of us can experience them. Yes, they might be experienced differently... some of us hate flying on planes, some of us like pineapple on our pizza, etc. But subjective likes and dislikes aside, there is no debate as to their existence. That cannot be said for any of the religious, faith-based claims for which they are offered as analogues.
If you want to draw an apt analogy, you need to be working with unicorns, or giant rabbits named Harvey, or Thor's hammer, or bigfoot, or trolls living under bridges, or the Man in the Moon... or SOMETHING that shares characteristics in common with the unseen entities or unknowable features in question. These are all things that someone, somewhere believed in... but are not universally accepted as real. As soon as you point toward a common everyday item, the evidence for which we can all accept and take for granted... you have created a false equivalence that does little to advance our understanding.
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 03-03-2019 at 04:54 PM..
I love pizza. I am also fond of sprinkling my conversation and my teaching with analogies.
The problem is, I have yet to see an analogy on this forum (and not just on this thread) that does the job, when the point is to show us how faith/belief/religion work. On another thread, we were informed that every one of us exercises blind faith, every time we step on a ladder, or take an airplane flight, or swallow a medicine. We don't independently verify those ladders or airplanes or medicines, it was argued... therefore that is analogous to putting our faith in unseen beings and unknowable futures. In yet another thread, warning a child about the threat of eternal damnation in hell was equated to warning children about the dangers of hot stoves, busy streets and mean dogs. And now we have pizza, as an allusion to the heart warming (or at least stomach filling?) experience of believers.
Each of those analogies share one thing in common, and on that one thing they all fail. THEY ARE ALL FOUND IN REAL LIFE. They are demonstrably and verifiably real, and each of us can experience them. Yes, they might be experienced differently... some of us hate flying on planes, some of us like pineapple on our pizza, etc. But subjective likes and dislikes aside, there is no debate as to their existence. That cannot be said for any of the religious, faith-based claims for which they are offered as analogies.
If you want to draw an apt analogy, you need to be working with unicorns, or giant rabbits named Harvey, or Thor's hammer, or bigfoot, or trolls living under bridges, or the Man in the Moon... or SOMETHING that shares characteristics in common with the unseen entities or unknowable features in question. These are all things that someone, somewhere believed in... but are not universally accepted as real. As soon as you point toward a common everyday item, the evidence for which we can all accept and take for granted... you have created a false equivalence that does little to advance our understanding.
While this seems well thought out, it presents a very myopic view of the purpose of analogies. They are typically used to explain known things, principles, or processes that may be too complex for a mass audience but they are also used to explain hypotheses about principles, or processes about unknown things that are currently beyond our ability to explain or measure. In either case, they must use what is known in real life! If you are trying to explain a phenomenon like consciousness that has no readily available counterpart since we do NOT know what comprises it, we still need to use something that we do know about that exists in real life - like fire. Consider the following two analogous descriptions carefully:
Fire, or burning, is merely energy change that produces light and heat. Light and heat emanate from the transformation of physical substance. Light and heat appear to leave the source, but in the totality of the universe, they remain as forms of energy. The two forms of energy, light and heat, possess different characteristics but are in the EM spectrum.
Consciousness, or “thinking,†is merely energy change that produces thoughts and feelings. Thoughts and feelings emanate from the transformation of neural energy. Our thoughts and feelings appear to leave us, but in the totality of the universe, they continue to exist as forms of energy. The two forms of consciousness, thoughts and feelings, possess different characteristics but are in an EM-like spectrum.
That is how the use of analogy can offer explanations for unknowns we can only speculate about.
While this seems well thought out, it presents a very myopic view of the purpose of analogies. They are typically used to explain known things, principles, or processes that may be too complex for a mass audience but they are also used to explain hypotheses about principles, or processes about unknown things that are currently beyond our ability to explain or measure. In either case, they must use what is known in real life! If you are trying to explain a phenomenon like consciousness that has no readily available counterpart since we do NOT know what comprises it, we still need to use something that we do know about that exists in real life - like fire. Consider the following two analogous descriptions carefully:
Fire, or burning, is merely energy change that produces light and heat. Light and heat emanate from the transformation of physical substance. Light and heat appear to leave the source, but in the totality of the universe, they remain as forms of energy. The two forms of energy, light and heat, possess different characteristics but are in the EM spectrum.
Consciousness, or “thinking,” is merely energy change that produces thoughts and feelings. Thoughts and feelings emanate from the transformation of neural energy. Our thoughts and feelings appear to leave us, but in the totality of the universe, they continue to exist as forms of energy. The two forms of consciousness, thoughts and feelings, possess different characteristics but are in an EM-like spectrum.
That is how the use of analogy can offer explanations for unknowns we can only speculate about.
I appreciate the attempt, but would argue that your examples are of a kind, and therefore not great examples of the problem I identify. Fire, heat, light, energy, consciousness, thinking, neural outputs... are all identifiable in the real world. They are measurable, observable, demonstrable, testable... and therefore comparable. There may be things we don't know about them (and please, let's not go down the rabbit hole of consciousness, for the sake of the current discussion...), but there is no debate that THOSE THINGS EXIST. They are real world phenomena.
I will grant you that your examples come closer than those I see offered up by others ("hell is just like a mean dog or a busy street... my faith in the afterlife is just like you climbing on a ladder... the love of God is just like a pizza...")... but they are not apples to oranges. They are not equating the unobserved, unseen, may-or-may-not even exist with common, everyday, universally accepted phenomena. Therefore, my argument still stands.
But thanks for playing!
[ETA: Your opening point that analogies can help explain complex processes or things we don't understand is well-taken. However, in the current context, the references are being used to give supernatural, unverified (and unverifiable) concepts equal standing with common, everyday, easily verified phenomena. That is my concern.
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 5 days ago)
35,620 posts, read 17,953,728 times
Reputation: 50641
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster
First, a pair of disclosures/disclaimers....
I love pizza. I am also fond of sprinkling my conversation and my teaching with analogies.
The problem is, I have yet to see an analogy on this forum (and not just on this thread) that does the job, when the point is to show us how faith/belief/religion work. On another thread, we were informed that every one of us exercises blind faith, every time we step on a ladder, or take an airplane flight, or swallow a medicine. We don't independently verify those ladders or airplanes or medicines, it was argued... therefore that is analogous to putting our faith in unseen beings and unknowable futures. In yet another thread, warning a child about the threat of eternal damnation in hell was equated to warning children about the dangers of hot stoves, busy streets and mean dogs. And now we have pizza, as an allusion to the heart warming (or at least stomach filling?) experience of believers.
Each of those analogies share one thing in common, and on that one thing they all fail. THEY ARE ALL FOUND IN REAL LIFE. They are demonstrably and verifiably real, and each of us can experience them. Yes, they might be experienced differently... some of us hate flying on planes, some of us like pineapple on our pizza, etc. But subjective likes and dislikes aside, there is no debate as to their existence. That cannot be said for any of the religious, faith-based claims for which they are offered as analogues.
If you want to draw an apt analogy, you need to be working with unicorns, or giant rabbits named Harvey, or Thor's hammer, or bigfoot, or trolls living under bridges, or the Man in the Moon... or SOMETHING that shares characteristics in common with the unseen entities or unknowable features in question. These are all things that someone, somewhere believed in... but are not universally accepted as real. As soon as you point toward a common everyday item, the evidence for which we can all accept and take for granted... you have created a false equivalence that does little to advance our understanding.
I think it's a perfect analogy. Just the same as taste and see how good My Lord is.
Here, taste this pizza!! It's absolutely delicious!
Possible responses:
Um, I don't see any pizza
I can't taste that pizza. I bit into it and it seems to have no flavor
That's not pizza, that's crack
Meh, it's ok pizza
Oh my gosh, you're so right, that's the most delicious pizza I've ever seen!!! I can't wait to share it!
I think it's a perfect analogy. Just the same as taste and see how good My Lord is.
Here, taste this pizza!! It's absolutely delicious!
Possible responses:
Um, I don't see any pizza
I can't taste that pizza. I bit into it and it seems to have no flavor
That's not pizza, that's crack
Meh, it's ok pizza
Oh my gosh, you're so right, that's the most delicious pizza I've ever seen!!! I can't wait to share it!
OK, I'll work with door #1....
"Um, I don't see any pizza. Moreover, neither you nor anyone else has ever seen pizza. We don't even know what 'pizza' is. Because it has never been seen or evidenced in any other way, this thing called 'pizza" is experienced differently by every single one of us, if it is experienced at all. In fact, we cannot be certain this 'pizza' even exists, in anything other than hypothetical or metaphorical or aspirational terms."
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 5 days ago)
35,620 posts, read 17,953,728 times
Reputation: 50641
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster
OK, I'll work with door #1....
"Um, I don't see any pizza. Moreover, neither you nor anyone else has ever seen pizza. We don't even know what 'pizza' is. Because it has never been seen or evidenced in any other way, this thing called 'pizza" is experienced differently by every single one of us, if it is experienced at all. In fact, we cannot be certain this 'pizza' even exists, in anything other than hypothetical or metaphorical or aspirational terms."
Sentence #1 is fine.
No on statement #2.
You can only say, I don't see any pizza. We here don't see any pizza.
You can't say neither you nor anyone else has ever seen pizza, while some people at the table are remarking at how delicious the pizza is.
Well, I guess you COULD say that, but you'd come off like a lot of people who feel like they can deny other people's experiences just because they themselves haven't experienced it. And there seem to be an awful lot of people, with the topic of Christianity or other topics in general, who tell people they aren't experiencing what they state they are.
Just as I wouldn't stand here and say yes you are experiencing the power of prayer, you're just lying.
...., neither you nor anyone else has ever seen pizza....
You devil you, I'm gonna have to disagree with you yet again...People say this so much...even Christians, even Fundamentalists...yet, right there in Genesis Jacob 'saw God face to face and
yet survived' and called the place Penuel/Peniel. And so, so, so many NDErs have also, as many have on LSD....and many meditators and yogis.
Kinda boring ......
always the same ...Light.
"Um, I don't see any pizza. Moreover, neither you nor anyone else has ever seen pizza. We don't even know what 'pizza' is. Because it has never been seen or evidenced in any other way, this thing called 'pizza" is experienced differently by every single one of us, if it is experienced at all. In fact, we cannot be certain this 'pizza' even exists, in anything other than hypothetical or metaphorical or aspirational terms."
I thought of pizza as a particular religion or belief and this person was just saying their's was the best. The fact that everyone is claiming that doesn't seem to deter them.
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