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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
There has been frequent mention about debate. Ok, I made my personal stand on "debate" in a note to Transponder. I have no desire for it. I see no profit for either side? I doubt either of us could share anything new under the sun that hasn't been heard before.
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CV, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this *is* a debate/discussion forum. If your aim is to just diddy-on-bop around here preaching and witnessing, no one will care what you say. Not even a goodly number of Christians.
If you're not interested in a back-and-forth exchange and just what to drop stories about how someone's life was in the pits and then they found God - and then everything god magically better, go ahead, but we're going to rip it limb from limb. If you want to preach and witness, the Christianity forum might be the best place for you.
But one thing I won't waste my time doing is debating about debate. Fact is - it works. Whether your mind will be changed, whether you've heard it all before ... is irrelevant. There are those whose minds do change, there are those who haven't heard every argument 'under the sun.' Those are the people I write for, by and large, and anyone else who gets anything out of my post even if it's just a good laugh. In fact, someone on this forum recently sent me a message saying my posts helped deconvert someone - and I couldn't be happier.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
It would be a constant cycle of "You're wrong, I'm right. No, I'm right and you're wrong". I could quote non ending Scripture and associated thoughts, you'd counter with Pascal's Wager, Occam's/ Ockham's razor or the writings of Richard Dawkins....and, so on.
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Yes, and I'm sure you'll continue ignoring logic and science, defending the indefensible with hollow claims of faith, too.
But one thing I've never done is quote Richard Dawkins. Any Christian who believes we atheists put all of our stock in Dawkins and use him as the crux of our arguments really are delusional. Not because they're Christians but because they actually believe in this Dawkins cult of personality which simply doesn't exist. Though I'm reasonably sure you probably think Dawkins is the originator for every argument against God ever proposed.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
Further, if you note (as I've mentioned) Jesus argued and debated with the spiritual leaders of His day. He seldom, if ever, debated otherwise. He spoke, He offered, He taught to any willing to even consider listening. That was about it. Nothing more.
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You can do what I do - and hope a person you don't even know gets something out of your posts. Just don't expect we atheists and anti-theists to leave your posts alone. Christianity's privileged position is over. Now religious belief is as open to criticism as any other belief.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
I've already made it clear in a post to (Thrillobyte?)...the atheist's here are intelligent, well thought, and well read. I can't convince you guys of anything...I can't shove anything down your throat nor will I try. You either outright reject the pizza without even trying it, you've tasted the pizza and it's not for you, or you've, in the past, bought the pizza but returned it for a refund...and, you're quite adamant on your position.
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You're most likely right - we're not going to convert to Christianity on your say-so. It is extremely unlikely that you can make a credible argument on an internet forum. Just as surely as nothing we say will made one whit of difference despite the fact that Christianity is losing ground on quite a few fronts - either to fundamentalist Islam or simple non-belief or non-affiliation.
I keep saying to people why that is - but it doesn't matter to most Christians. They'd rather keep on keeping on in the same old way. Here in America, especially, there are far too many people who worship Jehovah in the same way ISIS worshiped Allah. Nowhere else in the world is there such a place that spawns so many fundamentalist and evangelical Christians as America.
This isn't just a question of what you believe for me. Because I find these beliefs dangerous and could very likely drag this nation into the abyss - if not humanity as a whole. Like, for instance, the millions of American Christians who think its perfectly okay to pollute, dump poisons in our water supply (especially in poor neighborhoods), spew greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, throw our plastic garbage into the ocean, and ignore the glaringly obvious signs of climate change. Why? Oh, well, because God gave us dominion over earth and therefore nothing humans do can change it. Or, humans are so small and puny that there's no way we can have an impact on God's creation. Or ... and this is the worst one, why bother worrying about what might happen a century from now when Jesus is coming back really really soon?
Makes me want to retch. Religion will play it's significant part in killing us all. Even aside from that, it is no coincidence that the fundamentals and evangelicals have decided to give their solid backing to the first dictator president in US history.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
I get that, as I've stated. I was part of the big time unbeliever mindset. I loved watching the little churches in the town I grew up in and hear about one of their steadfast members "fall" in some way...oh, how I did. Stupid, Self Righteous Christians...I loved it.
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Thing is, if you were once an atheist and then became a believer later - then I genuinely doubt if you really believed your belief. This is why you were so happy when someone from your town "fell," the reason why you thought Christians were stupid and self-righteous. You needed those things to maintain an atheism you really didn't believe in.
The reason why I say that is relatively simple: You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Once you know what you know, you can't unlearn it. Thus I posit that you were not a well-informed atheist. To find belief in such an obviously fictitious god, thus having to disbelieve or dismiss that which you knew as an atheist, doesn't make a lot of sense insofar as human psychiatry goes. It's not that I question your atheism, per se, but I do question the reasons for it. If you could truly throw all the logic and science to the wind, well ... something ain't right.
I also want to point out that you *don't* get it. Most of us atheists don't jump up and down with glee when someone deconverts. But we do try to help them through the process because Christianity can be mean, small-minded, insular, and intolerant. A lot of deconverts lose everything - their familes, their friends, their social circle, even their jobs, if they come out and openly admit they no longer believe. We know this and we do our best to make the process easier to deal with.
Of course, if Chistians didn't act that way to begin with, people could believe what they want without fear of being ostracized by their families and communities thus becoming a pariah. Which is just another example of why I'm an anti-theist. Because atheists don't shun our own, even if they do decide to go back to the church. Why does religion do it, I wonder?
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
SO, finally then...if anyone's even bothered to query--why does he even visit here?
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I am rather curious, yes.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
I've greatly striven to be respectful of both you and your belief choices. Hopefully I've come across as such.
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No one has accused you of being disrespectful that I know of. But I, at least, have to wonder how you can possibly juxtapose a good and loving god with the atrocities god committed in the Bible. That is a nasty case of cognitive dissonance - holding two beliefs at once that are contradictory. God can't be good and loving while committing horrible acts of violence and atrocity to make Hitler look like a Boy Scout.
Does that not bother you? Or do you just pretend like that dicotomy doesn't exist?
And I cannot figure out, either, now anyone calling themselves moral can agree with a book that says all non-believers will be tortured forever in Hell. Good beings do not torture people forever - especially not for a bad reason which amounts to, "How dare you tweak my ego and defy me? Therefore, I will get my revenge and burn you forever. Muahahaha."
How can a moral person live with themselves while thinking that good, just, charitable, generous, friendly, kind, and helpful people deserve eternal suffering because they had a different belief from yours? How? Only dictators punish people for political reasons - throw them in prison or execute them because they have an opposing view from that of the dictator. Is that who you worship? Kim Jung-un in the sky?
What's more is that there is no - and I mean *zero* - escaping that fact. Well, there is one escape. Don't believe it. Of course I'm sure that when you decided to reconvert to Christianity and as you run around spreading your threat - err, I mean the Good News - you don't give two second's thought about the atrocious aspects of Christianity. Just the warm and fuzzy stuff ... right?
So eat the pizza because if you don't, we're going to stuff you into the same oven where the pizza was baked and turn that temperature up to maximum - and then leave you in there forever.
I'd really like an answer to that.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
But, if there's one...and maybe only one...that is perhaps questioning their faith in atheism, or perhaps there's one that is so wanting to find their place in life, trying to find answers because they're confused and downtrodden and hurting...they're simply searching...that's who I hope to encounter.
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Oh look - you're my opposite number. Guess I came back just in time so that people reading your magical mambo-jahambo that offers not a single answer can read my posts, as well, and decide for themselves whether they want to wrap themselves up in a magical security blanket - or - they can actually care that their beliefs are true. I guess we'll see ... won't we.
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
Will I one day log in and see a direct message from someone like that just asking "ok, tell me just a little more about your faith..."? Maybe. Perhaps. Or...not. Or, maybe I'll just plant some seeds that someone else will water and harvest.
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Maybe. Maybe. But that's just it. If Christianity didn't claim to have a mandate for world conquest, I wouldn't even post about religion. People can believe what they want - within reason. But since organized religion - the religion you belong to - insists that people go out into the world and sell snake oil to get more butts in the pews, I feel - as do many others - that religious missionary work cannot be left unchallenged.
Understand what you said - "perhaps there's one that is so wanting to find their place in life, trying to find answers because they are confused and
downtrodden and hurting ...."
I take *extreme* issue with this - because I consider this predatory behavior. Your religion finds people who are hurting, downtrodden - people who are alone, homesick, scared, depressed, desperate and set upon them like wolves preying upon a wounded animal. You attack those who are vulnerable and fill their heads with false hope - while doing very little to actually solve their problems. Religion doesn't give people practical advice to change their lives. Or, if they do, it is couched in religious mysticism. It's the old adage of, "I had a headache so I prayed and took an aspirin. An hour later I felt good again so God answered my prayer." Yeah, forget the aspirin entirely - that had nothing to do with it, right?
Thus advice such as, "God helps those who help themselves" is utterly ridiculous because you can take God out of that advice altogether and still get the same results.
There's a reason why you find religious zealots witnessing and handing out literature at places like homeless shelters, battered women's shelters, military bases that train recruits, bus stations, prisons, and other places where they are sure to find fresh victims who are desperate enough to believe in just about anything. If that isn't predatory, honestly, what is?
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Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
Whatever...it's all good. I share the message of Jesus and I share what He's done in my life and I urge those, that haven't, to consider checking out...the Pizza.
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That's fine - but I'm going to urge people to realize that there really isn't any pizza, but all is not lost. Taking proactive measures to pull oneself out of the proverbial gutter is what everyone does anyway, god or not, so why bother with all the god stuff? The rules, the restrictions, the prefabricated lists of people you're supposed to oppress, and the non-stop rules about sex.
I've said this many times, as well, but one of the things that made me lose a lot of respect for Christianity is it's obsession over sexuality. It is a belief system that teaches people that sex is wrong, it is a sin, it is somehow dirty, and therefore all sex has to take place within the fictitious covenant with god regarding marriage. And only for procreation - as many denominations like to say.
If just the Mormon church alone put $23,000,000 into helping people obtain long-needed medical treatment, building housing for the poor, helping the homeless receive psychiatric support, and things of that nature, they could have been a major force for good in this country. Instead, they spent double that amount, some $47,000,000 in just one state, California, to keep gays from getting married.
Not a penny to help - but they'll spend a small fortune to oppress. And believe me, the Mormons weren't alone.
Think about it, eh?
Take care.
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