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Old 03-06-2019, 03:36 AM
 
Location: US
28,169 posts, read 15,224,565 times
Reputation: 1778

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Hello CV.

No, atheists do not have "faith" that there is no god. Because there is no good evidence that there IS a god. We do not need faith to believe there is no good evidence. Because there isn't.

One might as well say that we need "faith" that the computer I'm using is actually real. But, since it IS real for all intents and purposes, I don't need faith to believe it exists. The lack of good, demonstrable evidence for god is just as real as this computer. Therefore, I do not need faith to believe there is no god.

The best definition I have ever heard for "faith" is this: A belief in something for which there is no evidence.

As such, the lack of evidence for a god means only those who believe in god - for which there is no evidence - requires faith. Not believing in god requires no faith at all.

Dunno if that made sense to you or not since it's a bit hard to put into words. But there you go.
You’ll catch me if I fall backwards, you say, but there is no evidence that this is what you will do...I would just have to have faith that you will, without the evidence...
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:41 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,385,532 times
Reputation: 4057
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
This wasn't directed to me, but I hope fish and CV won't mind if I respond... because YES, it makes perfect sense to me! Two quick points:

(A) Words like "debate" and "argument" get tossed around (and I use them myself), when all we really mean... and all we are really after... is discussion and understanding. "Debate" may be perceived as "insult and attack," and I don't think anyone (ok, hardly any of us...) are intending that.
I use the word "debate" to signify a back-and-forth discussion where both people are arguing different sides and don't really agree with one another.

Which is different from a dicussion because a discussion can be about anything and from any viewpoint. I can have a discussion about politics with my mother, for instance, even though she and I are almost identical politically and agree with each other 99.99% of the time.

In regards to politics, I have debates with my father - because he has a completely opposite view than I do.

And a debate is different from an argument - because an argument tends not to be civil. A debate is usually civil. I mean, i was on the debate team in college and I don't remember any arguments nor do I remember any uncivil exchanges. (Even though I did quit after two semesters because I thought most other teams used cheesy, swarmy tactics to try and win).

I know there are some who think the word "debate" is some horrible word that signifies a lack of civility in the conversation - but all it means is an exchange between two people or two groups of people who take different sides of an issue.

Because, let's face it, that is where most of the discussion exists - when there is disagreement. If we agree with each other, what more is there to say? Unless we cast around blindly in a conversation searching for that point of contention so that the dialogue can be more interesting.

Otherwise, you just end up writing a bunch of "me too" posts - and those usually get skipped over by everyone but the person you agree with.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:51 AM
 
3,201 posts, read 1,614,763 times
Reputation: 3331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Hey elyn02,

My apologies if I thought you were making the argument that atheists are somehow corrupted by the devil. If that was not your intent - then yeah, misunderstandings happen.

And it happens most often when I'm not very familiar with the person I'm responding to. I've been gone awhile and there are some new names here I've not seen before - like yours.

Anyhow, if your argument regarding the devil was mocking moreso than real, then consider my response to you redacted, retconned, null and void, etc.

Take care.
No problem. The reputation of your posts precedes them so I was surprised when you addressed my post. I knew immediately I should have been clearer.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:55 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,385,532 times
Reputation: 4057
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
But Christians don't really care about arguments.
I would beg to differ.

In fact, I would demand to differ.

Remember people like Jeffbase wrote posts as long as mine sometimes are. Why would you do that if you don't really care about argumentation?

It is a lot more than Christians coming here and sharing their religion. Many are here like we atheists are here - we write to influence those who read what we say. Even if it is someone we don't know, someone who never actually writes a post here, but logs out and thinks about both sides and perhaps makes a decision.

In many respects, when a Christian shares what is real to them, they are making an argument.

And with respect to my post above where I give some definitions of words like 'debate' and 'discussion' and 'argument,' let me be clear:

There is another type of 'argument' that doesn't involve simply shouting at each other. In this case, an 'argument' is the structure of your syllogism. In that sense, you are making an argument - but not necessarily arguing. In other words, you're making your case - you are putting forth an argument.

Yeah, it's a bit confusing but hopefully everyone knows what I'm talking about.

And I would argue that, when Christians "share," that's what they're doing - making an argument for their position of faith and we atheists make our argument for our position of nonbelief.

We can be as polite as we wish to each other - but we're both still making an argument. That is why a lot of fallacies begin with the words "argument from ..." or "ad argumentum." It has to do with the logic and structure of the point you're making, not whether your screaming at your opponent in a face-off. Anyway:

Argumentum ad populum
Argumentum ad hominem
Argumentum ad baculum
Argumentum ad veracundiam
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad absurdum

Even..

Argumentum ad Nazium. Heh heh.

There are lots of these - and like it or not, Christians run afoul of "bad arguments" a lot because they're fallacious.
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:25 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,385,532 times
Reputation: 4057
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
I've noticed that pairing too. Comes from being repeatedly told that science is untrustworthy.

Because they hate that science tends to reveal the lies in "holy" books.
Yes, Trout, that's most likely part of it.

But there is another, perhaps more prevalent reason.

The political right in this country want Americans to believe that climate change is either A) a myth or B) natural, so we can't do anything about it.

This position is held - NOT because the science bears it out, but because changing our economy and technology to reduce greenhouse gases, carbon emissions, and to stop polluting and dumping poisons into our water supply ... will, will ... wait for it ... will ...

COST MONEY!

And that's what it's all about - money. I have said before that if humanity has a cosmic tombstone, it will say something like, "Here lies humanity, done in by stupid little green pieces of paper with the face of a dead person on the front."

Thing is that the fundevangelist crowd has taken a solid stance next to their right-wing leaders - and anything they say ... goes. And since the right-wingers want to ignore climate change in deference to their own bank accounts, so too do the fundevangelists. Truth is utterly meaningless - and so is science. What matters is what their thought control masters say.
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,387 posts, read 1,015,579 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
There's a book I've seen..."I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be and Atheist".
Turek. Say no more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
I figure an atheist has faith as well. They either have faith there is no God whatsoever or faith in whatever slant off of that. it's their belief so, kinda sorta, their "faith". Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be an aspect of faith involved?

Anyway...that's why I worded that as I did for what it's worth.
Faith based on evidence.
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,387 posts, read 1,015,579 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
There's a term we use, "apathetics". Comes from apathy. Which means the person really hasn't put much thought at all into whether there is a higher power, and are uninterested in any kind of exploration of the question.
But are they apathetic, or do they find the idea of a god just speaking everything into existence simply not believable? Most of us have a subconscious idea of probability, that is why you would know it is unlikely I have a private Lear jet without exploring the question.
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:48 AM
 
10,707 posts, read 4,316,811 times
Reputation: 27007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Turek. Say no more.



Faith based on evidence.
Contradiction in terms.

Maybe "belief based on evidence"? Faith specifically goes without clear evidence.
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:50 AM
 
10,707 posts, read 4,316,811 times
Reputation: 27007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
But are they apathetic, or do they find the idea of a god just speaking everything into existence simply not believable? Most of us have a subconscious idea of probability, that is why you would know it is unlikely I have a private Lear jet without exploring the question.
The Apathetics I'm referring to really haven't considered it, and say wishy washy things like there may be a God, I haven't really thought about it. And then they go on to another topic the way anyone would who has no interested in considering it.
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Old 03-06-2019, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Germany
5,387 posts, read 1,015,579 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
Contradiction in terms.

Maybe "belief based on evidence"? Faith specifically goes without clear evidence.
Faith and belief are flexible in their meanings. That is why dishonest Christians argue atheism is a faith based position, to make it appear there is no evidence for it.

But you are contradicting yourself by admitting faith goes without clear evidence. But it often goes with some evidence, probability. You have faith when you get on a plane, bus or train that it is not going to crash because most of the time they do not. A faith based on probability. That degree of faith may differ, but most likely you will have some evidence for it.
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