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the phrase "honor your father and mother" is a general guide line. It is simply meant for the average person to show a bit respect for the people that sacrificed so much to make one. Thats all, and its valid.
Only stupid people would turn it into "you must honer abusive parents.". Jesus never meant that. If anything Jesus would have, past tense, understood the conflicting emotions of a child that is abused and would offer anything that particular brain needed to regain some sense of control.
we regular middle of the roader do not have to engage the two extreme ends. all we have to do is deal with them. like"no, Jesus didn't mean treat abusive parents in the same minor we treat loving parents.", although I should think he would add "try not to act out of malice". and he would be correct.
fundy-think type people butcher it and turn it into a weapon.
1. The ten commandments were not handed down by Jesus. You're off by quite a few years on that.
2. You talk about "middle of the roaders". And I think that concept is exactly what some of us are talking about. A middle of the roader christian would see the distinction. But then there's another whole class of christians who see the bible as the precise word of god and who take everything literally. And I will tell you that I have seen abusive religious parents who pull the ten commandments on their kids.
So in a sense, what some of us are really asking is -- how literally should christians take the bible. You know...gays versus shellfish?
1. The ten commandments were not handed down by Jesus. You're off by quite a few years on that.
2. You talk about "middle of the roaders". And I think that concept is exactly what some of us are talking about. A middle of the roader christian would see the distinction. But then there's another whole class of christians who see the bible as the precise word of god and who take everything literally. And I will tell you that I have seen abusive religious parents who pull the ten commandments on their kids.
So in a sense, what some of us are really asking is -- how literally should christians take the bible. You know...gays versus shellfish?
Some are asking that. And Arach is one of those.
Some aren't asking that at all. They're insisting, actually, that Christians must take it literally or they lack integrity. And the reason they do that is because they are fully aware that taking it literally is foolishness, and therefore it becomes an easy target for an atheist to shoot down.
Some aren't asking that at all. They're insisting, actually, that Christians must take it literally or they lack integrity. And the reason they do that is because they are fully aware that taking it literally is foolishness, and therefore it becomes an easy target for an atheist to shoot down.
But this is the problem.
You know what it reminds me of? Years ago I had a very close friend who was Vietnamese. And we sometimes like to debate issues. And when it was to his advantage he'd say, "Well, you have to remember, I'm from a different culture, and I think like a Vietnamese" . Ten minutes later he might turn right around and say, "Well, you have to remember, I'm an American now and have been for ten years, so I think like an American".
And this is exactly the little trick christians use with the bible. When it's to their advantage, the bible should be taken literally. When it's too their advantage, the bible should be taken figuratively.
I have known of churches who have split because they can't agree on things as simple as a particular hymn...and as complex as the issue of civil rights. The saying, "United we stand, divided we fall"...that applies to a religion, too. And they can't even stand together...they have to have hundreds of little churches in a place like where I live because they can't sit and pray together.
You know what it reminds me of? Years ago I had a very close friend who was Vietnamese. And we sometimes like to debate issues. And when it was to his advantage he'd say, "Well, you have to remember, I'm from a different culture, and I think like a Vietnamese" . Ten minutes later he might turn right around and say, "Well, you have to remember, I'm an American now and have been for ten years, so I think like an American".
And this is exactly the little trick christians use with the bible. When it's to their advantage, the bible should be taken literally. When it's too their advantage, the bible should be taken figuratively.
To their advantage in what way? How many non-fundamentalist Christians do you know that use the bible as a weapon?
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I have known of churches who have split because they can't agree on things as simple as a particular hymn...and as complex as the issue of civil rights. The saying, "United we stand, divided we fall"...that applies to a religion, too. And they can't even stand together...they have to have hundreds of little churches in a place like where I live because they can't sit and pray together.
It's pretty pathetic.
Do you know any group of people that is of one mind about everything?
To their advantage in what way? How many non-fundamentalist Christians do you know that use the bible as a weapon?
Do you know any group of people that is of one mind about everything?
Oh, I have known some who use it as a weapon against almost anyone they don't like, whether it be gay people, Blacks, Jews...
But why do you leave fundamentalists out? "They" don't when they're bragging about the numbers of christians that together make this a christian nation.
As far as being of one mind...there's truth in what you say, but then again, their premise is that christianity is the best pizza ever known to mankind...or not. They supposedly unite behind ONE teacher, but cannot agree on his teachings.
Oh, I have known some who use it as a weapon against almost anyone they don't like, whether it be gay people, Blacks, Jews...
But why do you leave fundamentalists out? "They" don't when they're bragging about the numbers of christians that together make this a christian nation.
I leave them out, because those of a fundamentalist mindset (those that insist the Bible = God's inerrant, infallible word), are the ones most likely to use it as a weapon. Those who understand the bible is a collection of books written by various men, in various times are not as likely to insist that they are God's mouthpiece based on that belief.
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As far as being of one mind...there's truth in what you say, but then again, their premise is that christianity is the best pizza ever known to mankind...or not. They supposedly unite behind ONE teacher, but cannot agree on his teachings.
But, unless they are the type of Christians that insist everyone else must adhere to what they think Jesus taught (or face dire temporal and/or eternal punishment), why does it matter if they decide to follow their own conscience in that matter?
I leave them out, because those of a fundamentalist mindset (those that insist the Bible = God's inerrant, infallible word), are the ones most likely to use it as a weapon. Those who understand the bible is a collection of books written by various men, in various times are not as likely to insist that they are God's mouthpiece based on that belief.
But, unless they are the type of Christians that insist everyone else must adhere to what they think Jesus taught (or face dire temporal and/or eternal punishment), why does it matter if they decide to follow their own conscience in that matter?
Because they want to say (literally), "We have the word". And yet, they don't.
Look, I'm now an atheist, and for quite a years before that I was mostly Buddhist. And yet, when a Methodist friend invited me to functions at her church, I often attended. When Catholic friends invited me to functions at their church, I often attended. I've been to Mormon events. Functions at a Jewish synagogue. And several other different types of churches.
And yet I know non-fundamentalist christians -- in fact, some of the same ones who invited me to their church's events -- that would not set foot in a different type of religious place of worship. I personally was told by a priest years ago (when I was catholic) that I couldn't be a best man at my best friend's wedding because he was methodist. Christians talk a good game of being "united in christ", and it's a lie.
Because they want to say (literally), "We have the word". And yet, they don't.
Look, I'm now an atheist, and for quite a years before that I was mostly Buddhist. And yet, when a Methodist friend invited me to functions at her church, I often attended. When Catholic friends invited me to functions at their church, I often attended. I've been to Mormon events. Functions at a Jewish synagogue. And several other different types of churches.
And yet I know non-fundamentalist christians -- in fact, some of the same ones who invited me to their church's events -- that would not set foot in a different type of religious place of worship. I personally was told by a priest years ago (when I was catholic) that I couldn't be a best man at my best friend's wedding because he was methodist. Christians talk a good game of being "united in christ", and it's a lie.
Well, I'm not here to defend the human propensity to gather into groups and exclude others. It's unfortunate and I think there are plenty of Christians who agree with that. I also don't see it as being exclusive to Christianity and I wonder why you would expect them to act differently than the world at large when you know that they do NOT "have the word".
Well, I'm not here to defend the human propensity to gather into groups and exclude others. It's unfortunate and I think there are plenty of Christians who agree with that. I also don't see it as being exclusive to Christianity and I wonder why you would expect them to act differently than the world at large when you know that they do NOT "have the word".
Because they think (and say) that they do. You must have seen the claims about how Believing will transform people, and its is an open secret that they seem to think that this faith inspires them with true understanding. And yet they behave -as you note - just like any other human group (even atheists who have only one thing in common - non -belief in the god -claim) in having all sorts of different opinions and views. And they even have different churches so that they can associate only with the like -minded.
Because they think (and say) that they do. You must have seen the claims about how Believing will transform people, and its is an open secret that they seem to think that this faith inspires them with true understanding. And yet they behave -as you note - just like any other human group (even atheists who have only one thing in common - non -belief in the god -claim) in having all sorts of different opinions and views. And they even have different churches so that they can associate only with the like -minded.
Of course I have seen such claims. And it's a great point to make, in my opinion, that such claims are unfounded. But not all Christians claim it. And yet, as I said in the post that kicked this off, some atheists will rip into those Christians who do NOT claim that the bible is the literal word of God, in it's entirety, insisting that they lack integrity. And it is obvious to this observer, at any rate, why they do it:
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Some are asking that. And Arach is one of those.
Some aren't asking that at all. They're insisting, actually, that Christians must take it literally or they lack integrity. And the reason they do that is because they are fully aware that taking it literally is foolishness, and therefore it becomes an easy target for an atheist to shoot down.
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