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Old 04-16-2019, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,335,973 times
Reputation: 2611

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Response concerning Ganesh? I didn't make mention of the video either...
I relayed the message I was supposed to relay. That's sufficient.
So a cop-out?

Quote:
I can only hope that one day, you'll change your position and point of view.
I hope the same for you.

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God does love and cherish you. He wants a relationship with you...desperately so.
If your god exists then it knows where I am. It is indeed a mystery why an omnimax deity require people working for it.

Quote:
But, that's your choice.
Indeed.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,933 posts, read 8,400,927 times
Reputation: 15528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Thanks Fishbrains.

I can also think of many anecdotes where certain beliefs about God caused harm, so we're on the same page with that.

Minus the harmful beliefs, I'm wondering if you can tell me how the absence of belief in God would lead someone to a more fulfilled and happier life? Again, I'm not looking to argue, just wanting to understand. Coming at it from that perspective, I'm certain that people who do not have a belief in God can be just as prone to other beliefs that are equally as harmful as some religious beliefs. It's not atheism, itself, that would allow someone to live a happier and more fulfilled life, then. Or would you disagree?
I am not sure that I can entirely separate the harmful beliefs, as they often serve as a nice contrast to the benefits of atheism. My belief is also that atheism is factual and true, so there are a variety of benefits that accrue with having a worldview that is congruent with reality.

By removing religion as an explanation, the atheist can determine, or try to determine, the real causes of events. As an atheist, the answer god did it is obviously inadequate, and causes people to search for true causes. Much of our scientific knowledge is the result of a search for truth. There have been notable religious scientists who have made discoveries in the pasT, but currently scientists skew atheist, and we advance human knowledg3 more quickly than eve4 before. This is correlation and not causation, I admit.

I can make life decisions based on reality. Religious adherents are often burdened by guilt if they are LGBT, have bad relationships, pre-marital sex, etc. Atheists have no such inherent conflicts, and have the potential for more fulfilling relationships. Again, potential, and theists can also have good relationships, but I think the basis in atheism is firmer.

The acknowledgement that death is final is liberating. No worries about an afterlife, no concerns about the fate of a loved one. It is sad to have a loved one die, but that grief can run its course, and there are no more worries.

The ability to make moral decisions based on a defensible standard is satisfying. I donít hav3 to worry about what god says, or a priest interprets. I can make moral decisions based upon facts and be confident in my decision.

I can live in the moment. I know that this lif3 is all that I have, which gives me an incentive to maximize my time on earth.

Go back a few posts. Casual Visitor seems distraught at the though5 of not being able to pray for Rafius, presumably because of the bad fate he thinks will befall Raf. I do not have any sim8lar concerns, nor do 8 feel any compulsion to try and change another personís life. I can accept all people as they are, without try8ng to measure their conformity to some odd yardstick.

I donít pretend that any of these thoughts apply to all atheists universally, nor do I th8nk all theists are lacking in all areas. That wasnít my claim however. Perhaps unique to me, but I see many theistic standards as holding people back, and atheism allows people, or at a very minimum me, to thrive.
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:19 PM
 
39,035 posts, read 10,825,389 times
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Certainly not having to fret about other people going to hell (aside from terror - attested to by numerous former Christians - though they avoid ever saying so AS Christians - that they might not have done enough to avoid it themselves) is something I feel profoundly grateful for.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:46 AM
 
3,062 posts, read 1,563,443 times
Reputation: 3202
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor View Post
Done. I will honor your desire. Yeah, I really will though it honestly pains me to do so.

Response concerning Ganesh? I didn't make mention of the video either...
I relayed the message I was supposed to relay. That's sufficient.

I still wish you well. I truly do. I can only hope that one day, you'll change your position and point of view. God does love and cherish you. He wants a relationship with you...desperately so. But, that's your choice.

With that, I leave you to it.
"Desperately so" sounds like a conflict. Who is often identified to be the source of this conflict? Humans because they made "the choice" to not have a relationship. God is never responsible for his desperation.

I get it. God wanting a relationship with me is different than some stranger at a bar wanting a relationship with me. It is safe to conclude that the intentions are different. But if I didn't want a relationship with the stranger at the bar, most people wouldn't point to me as the source of the conflict, the desperation.

Of course, I don't want my post being targeted because I equated what God wants with what somebody at a bar wants. God's intentions are more fatherly like and, therefore, patience, consideration, and exploration are expected from the human. If we don't give God a chance, we are creating the conflict.

My point is that humans complicate God by creating conflict in what he wants. "He wants a relationship with you" can be the end of it. Honestly, nobody has to know that God wants a relationship with me specifically. He can come straight to me and let me know. "He really, really wants this" is creating conflict.

Then humans complicate their interactions with others in much the same way. "I want to pray for you" can be the end of it and nobody really has to know what you want. "It pains me that you won't accept my prayer" is creating conflict. Who is responsible for those pains?
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:39 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,933 posts, read 8,400,927 times
Reputation: 15528
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
"Desperately so" sounds like a conflict. Who is often identified to be the source of this conflict? Humans because they made "the choice" to not have a relationship. God is never responsible for his desperation.
Elon,

This is largely a restating if the OP using different language.

I have said I donít see, smell or taste the pizza, and CV cannot provide me with any evidence of that pizza. You are saying the same thing. The relationship you describe doesnít exist, because the other entity in this relationship doesnít seem to exist.

Using your analogy, I know what a relationship with somebody at a bar might entail. At least I know the person at the bar exists, because I can see them, hear them, and they bought me a drink. God doesnít meet any of this standards.

You go on to claim other properties for this relationship, chief of which is that if I do not enter into it, it is all my fault, the other party (god), bears no responsibility. That is ludicrous. The stranger at the bar bought me a drink and chatted me up. I have something to base my decisions on. Your god not only did not buy me a drink, he didnít even show up to the bar.

Bringing this all together with my response to Pieroo, this is another benefit of atheism. I do not have to worry about what god allegedly wants. No need to be concerned about praying for others, no obligation to feel guilty or responsible for not entering into the ultimate blind date. I can enter into any relationship with real people that I want, secure in the knowledge that a relationship actually exists, because real people do.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:57 AM
 
3,062 posts, read 1,563,443 times
Reputation: 3202
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Elon,

This is largely a restating if the OP using different language.

I have said I don’t see, smell or taste the pizza, and CV cannot provide me with any evidence of that pizza. You are saying the same thing. The relationship you describe doesn’t exist, because the other entity in this relationship doesn’t seem to exist.

Using your analogy, I know what a relationship with somebody at a bar might entail. At least I know the person at the bar exists, because I can see them, hear them, and they bought me a drink. God doesn’t meet any of this standards.

You go on to claim other properties for this relationship, chief of which is that if I do not enter into it, it is all my fault, the other party (god), bears no responsibility. That is ludicrous. The stranger at the bar bought me a drink and chatted me up. I have something to base my decisions on. Your god not only did not buy me a drink, he didn’t even show up to the bar.

Bringing this all together with my response to Pieroo, this is another benefit of atheism. I do not have to worry about what god allegedly wants. No need to be concerned about praying for others, no obligation to feel guilty or responsible for not entering into the ultimate blind date. I can enter into any relationship with real people that I want, secure in the knowledge that a relationship actually exists, because real people do.
Fishbrains,
I understand the issues with my post when read by somebody who doesn't believe. I don't believe in a god as well. I truly wish one existed but that is mostly for my benefit. I mostly wrote that post trying to take into consideration that the reader believes in a god.


What I am trying to say is "Why in the world would a believer worry about God's relationship with other people? That is his problem or their problem. and Why even make it a problem?" So you can be a believer and not take on God's problems or just stop creating them, almost the same benefit that an atheist would have. Not quite problem free but at least some are eliminated.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:13 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,335,973 times
Reputation: 2611
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
Honestly, nobody has to know that God wants a relationship with me specifically. He can come straight to me and let me know.
Exactly! When ever Christians tell me that 'god' wants a relationship with me, I say... 'He knows where I live.'
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,933 posts, read 8,400,927 times
Reputation: 15528
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
Fishbrains,
I understand the issues with my post when read by somebody who doesn't believe. I don't believe in a god as well. I truly wish one existed but that is mostly for my benefit. I mostly wrote that post trying to take into consideration that the reader believes in a god.


What I am trying to say is "Why in the world would a believer worry about God's relationship with other people? That is his problem or their problem. and Why even make it a problem?" So you can be a believer and not take on God's problems or just stop creating them, almost the same benefit that an atheist would have. Not quite problem free but at least some are eliminated.
Thanks for clarifying. That makes perfect sense, and to my mind simply pointsout another detrimental aspect of religion.

Some religions tell people to worry about these things. It likes an obligation onto them to convert, or at the very least, preach the word. This is why the Mormons approached my last night while I was walking my dog.

It is notable that some religions donít care about recruitment in this manner. Judaism comes to mind.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:46 AM
 
3,638 posts, read 1,133,437 times
Reputation: 704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Exactly! When ever Christians tell me that 'god' wants a relationship with me, I say... 'He knows where I live.'
Come on RAF, the majik only works if you really really really want/need a relationship with god.
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
15,310 posts, read 10,335,973 times
Reputation: 2611
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15 View Post
Come on RAF, the majik only works if you really really really want/need a relationship with god.
Ah! Got it. God will only appear once you really, really, really, really, really believe that he's there.

Oddly enough. It's the same with the King of the Fairies.
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