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I hate to say it, because you sound so sincere, but it seems quite a bit like you're just trying to make brownie points with God. As you've said, it's not like you're sharing anything new under the sun, and you're not willing to respond to anyone's concerns about why they find your pizza either lacking in taste or downright poisonous. So, you're just dropping the same old rote "believe or else" bomb and then moving on. Why do that if not that you're just trying to check "evangelize" off your to do list?
I'm still chewing on "questioning their faith in atheism".
I hate to say it, because you sound so sincere, but it seems quite a bit like you're just trying to make brownie points with God. As you've said, it's not like you're sharing anything new under the sun, and you're not willing to respond to anyone's concerns about why they find your pizza either lacking in taste or downright poisonous. So, you're just dropping the same old rote "believe or else" bomb and then moving on. Why do that if not that you're just trying to check "evangelize" off your to do list?
Pleroo,
You come across as a "genuine" person. I appreciate that. I think you too are sincere and honest. And, as best I can tell---you seem to be a "good guy".
Because I share that same goal--sincerity and honesty, I SO do--your reply caught my attention as few other's have.
Why?
Because of something you seldom here on these boards...something I honestly admit.
You may well be most correct on your assessment. Yeah, you may be spot on.
I've questioned myself as to if I'm "copping out" for refusing to debate. I've wondered if I'm truly taking the path of least resistance...
I still stand by my original statement--debating "Religion" still seems like a fruitless endeavor due to the reasons I listed above. And, it often fails to stay civil. Also, I don't have the time to hang out here. I struggle to keep up with the posting pace here! I am awestruck by those that have numerous threads all going simultaneously.
Additionally---in all truth---I simply don't like arguing. It's not my nature. I've not felt I am called to be a Christian Apologist---some are, but I've not thought I was among that number.
But,...as stated, you caught my attention.*nods thoughtfully* I'll think and pray about this again.
I'm still chewing on "questioning their faith in atheism".
There's a book I've seen..."I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be and Atheist".
I figure an atheist has faith as well. They either have faith there is no God whatsoever or faith in whatever slant off of that. it's their belief so, kinda sorta, their "faith". Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be an aspect of faith involved?
Anyway...that's why I worded that as I did for what it's worth.
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 1 day ago)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualVisitor
There's a book I've seen..."I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be and Atheist".
I figure an atheist has faith as well. They either have faith there is no God whatsoever or faith in whatever slant off of that. it's their belief so, kinda sorta, their "faith". Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be an aspect of faith involved?
Anyway...that's why I worded that as I did for what it's worth.
There's a term we use, "apathetics". Comes from apathy. Which means the person really hasn't put much thought at all into whether there is a higher power, and are uninterested in any kind of exploration of the question.
And I really don't get that. I understand devout Christians, and I understand people who say I've given it a lot of thought, and I just do not believe in any kind of God at all. And then some who say yes, I do believe in some form of higher power but not exactly sure in what way, but it's not really Christian. Then of course, all the other beliefs in other higher powers unrelated to Christianity.
Apathetics feel about the possibility of God about the way I feel about anime. Like, really, really not interested in it at ALL.
There's a book I've seen..."I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be and Atheist".
I figure an atheist has faith as well. They either have faith there is no God whatsoever or faith in whatever slant off of that. it's their belief so, kinda sorta, their "faith". Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be an aspect of faith involved?
Anyway...that's why I worded that as I did for what it's worth.
CV,
I understand your thoughts on debating, as well as the volume of posts here. I frequently see a thread that interests me, but the thread is 50+ posts long and rapidly devolving.
Can we call this a discussion, rather than a debate? I know that I am not going to change your mind, nor do I really care if you continue to be a devoted Christian. I am interested in getting people to understand my point of view, and understanding theirs.
In that vein, I will comment on your faith:atheist statement. Many people have read the Strobel book you refer to. I have read chunks. I don’t think the title accurately reflects my viewpoint as an atheist. I don’t have faith that I am right, and I admit that I may be wrong. What I don’t have is faith in unprovable stories, which is how I view the Bible. Since I don’t have faith in them, or that of any other religion, I am left with what o consider to be a default, namely atheism.
You come across as a "genuine" person. I appreciate that. I think you too are sincere and honest. And, as best I can tell---you seem to be a "good guy".
Because I share that same goal--sincerity and honesty, I SO do--your reply caught my attention as few other's have.
Why?
Because of something you seldom here on these boards...something I honestly admit.
You may well be most correct on your assessment. Yeah, you may be spot on.
I've questioned myself as to if I'm "copping out" for refusing to debate. I've wondered if I'm truly taking the path of least resistance...
I still stand by my original statement--debating "Religion" still seems like a fruitless endeavor due to the reasons I listed above. And, it often fails to stay civil. Also, I don't have the time to hang out here. I struggle to keep up with the posting pace here! I am awestruck by those that have numerous threads all going simultaneously.
Additionally---in all truth---I simply don't like arguing. It's not my nature. I've not felt I am called to be a Christian Apologist---some are, but I've not thought I was among that number.
But,...as stated, you caught my attention.*nods thoughtfully* I'll think and pray about this again.
For what it's worth, while I know I probably come off as someone who's looking for a debate, it's not for the sport of it. I'm hoping something within the exchange gives you pause to consider why someone, who for most of their life, believed as you do, now has such a very different perspective on Christianity. Something you found within the Christian religion obviously changed your life for the better, but you may find, down the line, that it's holding you back in some vitally important ways. My only hope for you is that, if/when that happens, you don't end up throwing out the baby (the God who is love) with the very dirty bathwater that the form of Christianity you're offering here, is trying to bathe that baby in. Don't be that person that gets so mired down in the dogma and doctrines that played a part in setting you on a better path, that you become afraid to follow the path where it is leading. It takes courage to let go of things that once served a purpose, but eventually become detrimental.
I understand your thoughts on debating, as well as the volume of posts here. I frequently see a thread that interests me, but the thread is 50+ posts long and rapidly devolving.
Can we call this a discussion, rather than a debate? I know that I am not going to change your mind, nor do I really care if you continue to be a devoted Christian. I am interested in getting people to understand my point of view, and understanding theirs.
In that vein, I will comment on your faith:atheist statement. Many people have read the Strobel book you refer to. I have read chunks. I don’t think the title accurately reflects my viewpoint as an atheist. I don’t have faith that I am right, and I admit that I may be wrong. What I don’t have is faith in unprovable stories, which is how I view the Bible. Since I don’t have faith in them, or that of any other religion, I am left with what o consider to be a default, namely atheism.
Does that make any sense to you?
Fish,
Gotcha. Well stated and understandable. I like your reason and presentation.
And, Yes, discussion, at least sounds nicer. *chuckle*
I understand your thoughts on debating, as well as the volume of posts here. I frequently see a thread that interests me, but the thread is 50+ posts long and rapidly devolving.
Can we call this a discussion, rather than a debate? I know that I am not going to change your mind, nor do I really care if you continue to be a devoted Christian. I am interested in getting people to understand my point of view, and understanding theirs.
In that vein, I will comment on your faith:atheist statement. Many people have read the Strobel book you refer to. I have read chunks. I don’t think the title accurately reflects my viewpoint as an atheist. I don’t have faith that I am right, and I admit that I may be wrong. What I don’t have is faith in unprovable stories, which is how I view the Bible. Since I don’t have faith in them, or that of any other religion, I am left with what o consider to be a default, namely atheism.
Does that make any sense to you?
This wasn't directed to me, but I hope fish and CV won't mind if I respond... because YES, it makes perfect sense to me! Two quick points:
(A) Words like "debate" and "argument" get tossed around (and I use them myself), when all we really mean... and all we are really after... is discussion and understanding. "Debate" may be perceived as "insult and attack," and I don't think anyone (ok, hardly any of us...) are intending that.
(B) I echo fishbrains' comments on faith. At the risk of getting mired in terminology (there is plenty of that already), "faith" to me means "belief in or reliance on things without evidence to back them up." I have come around (after a lifetime in Christianity) to believe that faith of this kind is NOT something that is admirable or desirable, or something to be cited with pride. For that reason, I also don't think "faith" is something to be lost... rather, it is something I should never have held in the first place. Like fishbrains, I accept that I may be wrong, but that's where I have arrived, after much more thought than I ever gave these matters when I was a practicing Christian.
For what it's worth, while I know I probably come off as someone who's looking for a debate, it's not for the sport of it. I'm hoping something within the exchange gives you pause to consider why someone, who for most of their life, believed as you do, now has such a very different perspective on Christianity. Something you found within the Christian religion obviously changed your life for the better, but you may find, down the line, that it's holding you back in some vitally important ways. My only hope for you is that, if/when that happens, you don't end up throwing out the baby (the God who is love) with the very dirty bathwater that the form of Christianity you're offering here, is trying to bathe that baby in. Don't be that person that gets so mired down in the dogma and doctrines that played a part in setting you on a better path, that you become afraid to follow the path where it is leading. It takes courage to let go of things that once served a purpose, but eventually become detrimental.
Your witness is getting more and more outstanding, Pleroo!
I've questioned myself as to if I'm "copping out"
for refusing to debate. I've wondered if I'm truly taking the path of least resistance...
And you should take the path that feels good...why take a path
debating with intellectuals that want God proved under a microscope, that don't
get 'spirit', 'the unseen', the delicate exquisiteness that transcends the rational mind ...that
dwells in a space where there is no space or time.
Let the romantics hold tight to their Divine Romance and the intellectuals to their
verbal debates with prideful notches in their belts...see which keeps all of us warm at night.
Since life here is a fantasy anyway, I chose ours.
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