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Old 03-07-2019, 09:43 PM
 
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I would rephrase it as different ways. To be fair, both the Christian way and the other way(s) have positive things that are not found in the other.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
I would rephrase it as different ways. To be fair, both the Christian way and the other way(s) have positive things that are not found in the other.
Okay.
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Old 03-08-2019, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
This deals with another problem. How do the gospel -writers know stuff that went down when nobody was listening (either not there, or asleep)? I have never heard the apologetic that Jesus told about the 'Temptations' during their travels, but I have heard the explanation about knowing what Jesus said (and never mind the angel) in Gethsemane while they were all asleep.
Oh, I have! Jesus later told them what he had prayed about.
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Old 03-08-2019, 03:03 AM
 
36,751 posts, read 9,897,960 times
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Many people's faith in Jesus has had such an effect on them, and it changes them. In a way that I don't fully understand.
One can say the same of many religions. I can say that atheism changed me, in ways that I consider made me better.

None of that makes Christianity - or even religion - needful, let alone true.

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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Not in the same positive way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
How can you say that?
He Knows it on Faith. To the Unbeliever it Looks like an ad hoc argument to keep winning but he really Knows.

Damn' now I come to think it i - it's as good an example of 'lying for Jesus' as we could have asked. Making claims to support the faith without knowing or caring whether they are true or not.
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Old 03-08-2019, 03:17 AM
 
36,751 posts, read 9,897,960 times
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Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
You should know by now that Ozzy can, and will, say whatever is in his mind at the time his fingers are on a keyboard. It may, or may not, relate to the subject at hand, the post he is quoting, or the planet he is on.
The very familiar 'ad hoc' method of argument. Which works in this way 'I make a claim that statistics prove that 90% of atheists commit a serious crime before they are 40. Then, if you can't prove that this is untrue - it's a point for me. If you can, I drop that and make another assertion.' The 'if you can't disprove it, it must be true' mindset - but only for theism. For atheism nothing is true even if they can prove it...but the 'burden of proof reversal' mindset is basic.


The thing about 'pull facts out of your ass' is that it can lead to the apologist totally contradicting themselves later on - there is no coherent theory - you just pull an apologetic out of thin air.

Now this looks like Ozzy -bashing, but it isn't. It is actually the way human beans normally argue - they don't argue to get at the facts, they argue to win. We don't get taught critical thinking - we are allowed to learn squabbling, believe or not and 'courage of convictions'. Never mind that 'Faith' is a good thing. It isn't.
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Old 03-08-2019, 03:28 AM
 
36,751 posts, read 9,897,960 times
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Oh, I have! Jesus later told them what he had prayed about.
Yes, I was hoping someone would mention that. Luke's 'The Jesus lectures' hey? After he resurrected, he came back to instruct them for the regulation 40 days. Or when he met them on the mountain in Galilee, Or on the beach in John. Or anytime you like.

But that is where this variant of the 'campfire stories' apologetic fails. If so - they should all have known the important stuff - so why did they leave it out?

Vic. might say 'There was probably a good reason'. But that is merely waving the problem away, not explaining it. And as i also told Vic. That doesn't bother the true Believer at all - but it does bother those who are willing to question, think and doubt. And I believe that people do want to believe that their Faith is founded on reliable facts.

And the Gospels are not. Whether there is a real Law -observant Rabbi or a failed Messiah at the bottom of it or Jesus (as Ken Humphreys ..is it?) argues is totally fiction, is really academic. The Jesus of Christianity IS a fabrication.

And maybe it's time for another vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PNxPgpz5QA

I always loved the impressive -sounding (often latin) words the church uses to say 'Fake scripture'. Raffa - you have always liked the "Freer Logion". Which means, in fact, the cobbled -together resurrection account added to Mark, because he didn't actually have one.

And that may elicit a response (if the true believers are now even reading this thread) about '"Mark does have a resurrection...the empty tomb...." Which will prompt the vid giving a rather nice hypothesis of how that was Invented.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-08-2019 at 03:44 AM..
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by pastordowell View Post
when you lie to take or steal something it is bad...
So Christianity is bad. Got it!
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Old 03-08-2019, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Germany
3,642 posts, read 671,470 times
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes, I was hoping someone would mention that. Luke's 'The Jesus lectures' hey? After he resurrected, he came back to instruct them for the regulation 40 days. Or when he met them on the mountain in Galilee, Or on the beach in John. Or anytime you like.
Oh, hello friends, it is me, Jesus. Yes, I have come back from the dead, and, ... oh dear, Thomas has fainted. Andreas, Andreas, can you just lean Thomas against that rock. Err, Andreas, yes, very funny, leaning Thomas against Peter, but please do not make me laugh, my spear wound has still not healed. Wait, what am I thinking. There, now it is.

So, yes, I have come back, and I am glad it is over. Because while you were all sleeping in Gethsemane, I was filling my loin cloth, I can tell you. Peter, Matthew, take notes, you will need to write all this down. Oh dear, John has wandered away. Oh well, he will just have to make things up as he goes along.

Etc, etc.
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Old 03-08-2019, 07:54 AM
 
230 posts, read 40,355 times
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Oh, hello friends, it is me, Jesus. Yes, I have come back from the dead, and, ... oh dear, Thomas has fainted. Andreas, Andreas, can you just lean Thomas against that rock. Err, Andreas, yes, very funny, leaning Thomas against Peter, but please do not make me laugh, my spear wound has still not healed. Wait, what am I thinking. There, now it is.

So, yes, I have come back, and I am glad it is over. Because while you were all sleeping in Gethsemane, I was filling my loin cloth, I can tell you. Peter, Matthew, take notes, you will need to write all this down. Oh dear, John has wandered away. Oh well, he will just have to make things up as he goes along.

Etc, etc.
It's almost like you were there!?!?
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:58 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,695 posts, read 3,245,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pastordowell View Post
when you lie to take or steal something it is bad...
It's just as bad when you lie to distort or obfuscate the truth, it's bad when you do it in the form of gossip, it's bad when you use a lie to misdirect, conceal, or hyperbolize the truth. It's bad when you use it as part of a larger attempt at deception.

That's the most common way religion lies. Here's an example:

I'm not sure which apologist it was, but it was one of the big, well-known apologists like Hovind or Ham.

Anyhow, the apologist found two atheists sitting on a bench outside of a college building - the two atheists were probably in their early 20's. The apologist politely asked the atheists if he could ask them a few questions and the atheists agreed. The questioning went like this:

Apologist: "Let's say there is a woman who is beaten regularly by her husband to the point where something has to be done or she'll die - would you sneak into the husband's house and put poison in his coffee if you were guaranteed to get away with it? You won't have to worry about the police or anyone knowing it was you.

Atheists: "I don't know - probably calling the police would be a better idea."

Apologist: "The police have alread arrested him a time or two on domestic violence charges, but they just let him out a month or two later and he's right back to beating his wife. The hospital where the wife is treated have also alerted the police, but nothing is happening. It is likely she'll be killed before any serious action will be taken."

Atheists: "Well ... I don't know. I mean, I still have to live with a murder on my conscience."

Apologist: "And you'll get paid $10 million dollars to do it."

(Atheists look at each other)

Atheists: "Well, I suppose we would kill him - if it meant saving her life and everything. If one of the two has to die, it may as well be that piece of ______."

Second Atheist: "Actually, I'd do it for free - you wouldn't even have to pay me, but I'm not going to turn down the money."

So, later on, this apologist has a little conference with perhaps a couple of hundred people in attendance. The apologist has the movie screen pulled down and the video all spooled up and ready to go. He rants for a little bit about how immoral atheists are because they don't believe in God, and their belief in evolution makes them act like animals, yada yada.

Then he proceeds to the movie, saying that it would be proof that atheists are monsters. Needless to say, the video is played and it's the same video he made of the two atheists on the bench. Except the dialogue was so heavily edited that it made me sick.

Apologist: "... would you sneak into the husband's house and put poison in his coffee if you were guaranteed to get away with it?"

Atheist: "Well, I suppose we would kill him ..."

Apologist: "And you'll get paid $10 million dollars to do it."

Second Atheist: "Actually, I'd do it for free ..."

No mention of a battered wife. No mention of her impending death. No mention of the atheists' hesitance at committing murder. No clue that the apologist had to further entice the atheists with a large sum of money. No mention that the authorities were already Nothing.

As you can see, the apologist purposefully edited out the part that showed the murder would be in defense of someone else - which isn't necessarily murder. Or, at least, it is justified murder. What the apologist wanted to demonstrate was that atheists were pretty much cold blooded killers who would happily murder an innocent for money.

Now, this might be a rather exteme example of "lying for Jesus," I don't know. However, these kinds of apologists have the ability to reach a lot of people, and I doubt this highly edited, dishonest video clip was only used for this one conference.

I know *some* people like to blame the negative opinion of atheists on people like Madalyn O'Hair, but I'm convinced that - outside of standard bigotry, innocence, and religious judgmentalism - the reason for the hatred comes from these sorts of displays of flagrant dishonesty. It's easy to develop a hatred of minority groups when your authority figures and trusted clergymen are spewing poison in your face all the time about how evil we atheists are.

As I may have said - hatred is usually caused by someone's actions and, more often than not, hatred is reserved for specific individuals who committed some wrong against you. But when a person hates an entire group of people - especially a group of 30 million people at least - that emotion is taught. You have to be *taught* to hate entire demographic groups. Where else would these people learn to hate atheists save for televangelists and apologists lying, lying, lying.

A few years ago I happened to come down stairs while my grandmother was watching a televangelist, so I stood and listened for a few moments in the doorway. The televangelist was telling a congregation of thousands and a television viewership of millions that he got into a debate about God on social media. According to the televangelist, the atheist was rude, obnoxious, and threw a lot of profanity at him.

That may be true - I don't know. But can I trust that it's true? No, not really - because one again a Christian lied. For, you see, the televangelist didn't simply say that he encountered a rude atheist and admit that some people are rude and obnoxious regardless of what their religious beliefs are.

Oh no - he told everyone that the entire reason why he was rude and obnoxious was *because* he was an atheist. Yeah, if he wasn't a baby-eating atheist, I guess, then he would have been much calmer, nicer, kinder, and just an all around wonderful person.

But apparently all atheists - ALL of them - are rude and obnoxious because, once you become an atheist, you just can't help but act anti-social, right?

This is what I mean. The "lying for Jesus" is epic, and I don't believe the hatred comes from O'Hair. Most people don't even know who she is. No, it comes from people like that apologist and his edited video or the televangelist who dares to misinform millions of people by saying atheism causes bad behavior.

And then certain Christians wonder - actually have the temerity wonder - why some atheists like myself take a dim view of religion, its mandates, its dogma, its holy books - and the fact that religion always manages to turn dishonesty, immorality, hatred, and bigotry into something good. Then it impresses upon the congregation to go out into the world and spread their dishonestly, immorality, hatred, and bigotry as long as those things are displayed against a pre-prepared list of people you're allowed to treat like garbage.
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