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Well, although I'm not a believer in the strict definitions of words, because I think the real definition of a word is how people generally use the word, not what a handful of men in a publishing company say...I will point out a formal definition of a lie: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive". I think what's at question here is the "intent to deceive" part of the definition...perhaps even when one tries to deceive oneself.
Last evening I was watching the film "Spotlight", which was the story of the Boston Globe and how it broke the scandal of the priests in Boston who had molested children over the years, resulting in the resignation of Archbishop Law.
What I felt was most interesting about the film was not the day-to-day "mechanics" of the newspaper's investigation, but what was the crux of the film, highlighted repeatedly by officials of the church, local political leaders, and plain old parishioners -- that they could overlook a few "indiscretions" because the priest (except it turned out to be dozens of priests) and "the church" did so much else that was good. And that was tantamount to deceiving themselves, not just the general public.
And there's been a lot of this type of deception and self-deception about religion.
Think about, for example, how the bible is seen now as compared to fifty years ago or two hundred years ago. The bible hasn't changed, but how Christians see the bible has changed. Even half a century ago when I was a kid in the Methodist church, I remember hearing conversations where there was a consensus that the Bible is word of god, written by the hand of God, and that all the things that are related in the bible were pure fact. And I guess that belief was even stronger in the 1800s and 1700s in this country. Yet now -- even in this forum by Christians -- we hear about the bible being actually written by quite a few different men, that it's full of parables and stories, and that much of it can't be taken literally. So obviously, there's been some degree of deceit about the bible for centuries. The question is was it deceit in the past, or deceit in the future. And when Christians pick and choose from the bible, justifying their cherry picking, is that not also a form of deceit.
Bottom line -- for me -- there is a lot of "lying for Jesus" among Christians. They have created an echo chamber that supports their own belief and rarely listen to dissenting voices. That's self-deceit. In my own personal view -- any belief is invalid unless the individual and group are willing to honestly test the belief.
I agree that deceit is a critical component in lying but I take issue with including self-deceit. Our self-perceptions have repeatedly been shown to be subject to cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is an unconscious filter that is designed to protect our most important and crucial beliefs about our understanding and perception of Reality. This is NOT intent since the individual is unaware that they are filtering. When this filtering has been a long-term aspect of our perceptions, it can become gestalt. Gestalts are NOT amenable to change as you can readily see for yourself. Try NOT to see words and meaning in this post. At one time you would have been able to do that before you learned to read. Reading has become gestalt and cannot be changed. It can still be done by trying to read and get meaning from some other form of writing, like kanji or Chinese characters. Bottom line, self-perceptual errors or beliefs are not necessarily lying because they can be beyond our control.
Now I once had a discussion with a couple of opologists who tried to explain this.
(1) 6.15, where it should be is not actually the time of the transfiguration. Well, read the context and obviously it is. but even if it wasn't, where is it?
(2) Jesus told them to say nothing about it. (Mark 9.9) but that was only until he was risen. There was nothing to stop John relating it after then It didn't stop Matthew relating it.
To their credit neither of them tried to ague that John didn't think it worth mentioning. The answer is obvious - John knows nothing of it. Just as he knows nothing of a very grat deal of important stuff that is in the synoptics.
Some of them, anyway.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-07-2019 at 07:31 PM..
well, its good enough for me that "jesus" was a common name back then so ita plausible a great teacher named jesus tried to save the world. And the jews had the romans kill him for it.
That does not justify died, rose, and went into space for our sins. But I don't have to deny a guy named jesus lived either. Not does it change how i take the bible.
Can't you understand how the Jesus of history may have been used to symbolize the Christ of faith?
Yes. In fact (unlike the producer of those videos) I think that is the case - there was a real Jesus. But not in any way the Jesus of Christianity. I could be wrong, but so could he be.
Either way, the Jesus of Christianity is an invention.
Yes. In fact (unlike the producer of those videos) I think that is the case - there was a real Jesus. But not in any way the Jesus of Christianity. I could be wrong, but so could he be.
Either way, the Jesus of Christianity is an invention.
Many people's faith in Jesus has had such an effect on them, and it changes them. In a way that I don't fully understand.
You should know by now that Ozzy can, and will, say whatever is in his mind at the time his fingers are on a keyboard. It may, or may not, relate to the subject at hand, the post he is quoting, or the planet he is on.
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