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Old 03-14-2019, 01:36 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,727 posts, read 3,251,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I'm afraid that I can't agree about Doug 'n' Dave, Shirina. I remember the first 'circles' in a limited area of the UK Doug 'n' Dave eventually said they'd done it and this was of course dismissed by the UFO bods. "How could they have done it in different countries?". The copycat effect was ignored. It soon spread and has become an art (or graffiti) form and an advertising medium. Very elaborate figures are made with no great difficulty. I haven't studied the technique as the UFO body - when the whole thing looked too elaborate to be 'made by landing saucers' and became 'message from aliens' until very human square pictures started to appear, then the subject was dropped by Ufologists ("we'll see how this develops") and it developed into a sort of art - form where people get together to do it.

It just isn't a UFO phenomenon any more.
Yeah, that's precisely what I meant by the number of hoaxers. It makes picking out the genuine phenomena impossible. That holds true with UFO videos, ghost pictures, and whatever else someone wishes to investigate.

My issue is that skeptics are just as quick to dismiss it all as nothing but hoaxers as the UFO nuts are to assume every circle was made by aliens.

I prefer a middle ground.

I've seen way too many skeptics and authority figures do as much mental contortion exercises to explain away any possible alien cause as I've seen believers explain away the things it says in the Bible. Which is exactly why I began noticing the bad logic of some skeptics - it was identical to the way fundamentalists argue their case.

It's not that I think with any conviction that crop circles have anything to do with aliens - but I'm not at all willing to, as I said, throw the baby out with the bath water by proclaiming the entire phenomenon a big hoax and art display and pretend there's nothing at all to this.

Trouble is - there is a copy-cat effect to both fake *and* genuine circles.

One of the worst taints to genuine investigation is, like always, money. There are people out there who make a living on debunking every claim they hear - and if they didn't, they would soon go broke. Nothing but nothing can be true, genuine, or honest lest they lose money in book sales; more people would be willing not to buy into the skeptical point of view. They have a vested economic interest to get as many people as possible - not to be skeptical - but to literally disbelieve 100% with no questions asked.

I have seen some of the worst logic I've ever seen used come from the mouths of skeptics in regards to the alien phenomenon - which doesn't mean aliens really are visiting here and leaving circles - but if you dismiss the bad logic of these people, it means we still have an effect without a cause - i.e. something unexplained.

And since the stigma of even taking the phenomenon seriously has kept the scientific community rather far away, there is likely never to be any serious push to get to the bottom of this. And while we spend loads of money in projects like SETI and send up hundreds of billions of dollars in probes designed to look for earth-like worlds in the hopes of finding alien life, we're still silly enough to exclaim, "But they aren't coming here ... at all!"

I think there is just as much psychology involved here as there is science - because as long as we find the aliens way out "there" somewhere hundreds of light years away, people can feel comfortable and at ease. But if they're here ... now ... uh oh! And people get panicky.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:50 PM
 
38,679 posts, read 26,025,628 times
Reputation: 5947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Yeah, that's precisely what I meant by the number of hoaxers. It makes picking out the genuine phenomena impossible. That holds true with UFO videos, ghost pictures, and whatever else someone wishes to investigate.

My issue is that skeptics are just as quick to dismiss it all as nothing but hoaxers as the UFO nuts are to assume every circle was made by aliens.

I prefer a middle ground.

I've seen way too many skeptics and authority figures do as much mental contortion exercises to explain away any possible alien cause as I've seen believers explain away the things it says in the Bible. Which is exactly why I began noticing the bad logic of some skeptics - it was identical to the way fundamentalists argue their case.

It's not that I think with any conviction that crop circles have anything to do with aliens - but I'm not at all willing to, as I said, throw the baby out with the bath water by proclaiming the entire phenomenon a big hoax and art display and pretend there's nothing at all to this.

Trouble is - there is a copy-cat effect to both fake *and* genuine circles.

One of the worst taints to genuine investigation is, like always, money. There are people out there who make a living on debunking every claim they hear - and if they didn't, they would soon go broke. Nothing but nothing can be true, genuine, or honest lest they lose money in book sales; more people would be willing not to buy into the skeptical point of view. They have a vested economic interest to get as many people as possible - not to be skeptical - but to literally disbelieve 100% with no questions asked.

I have seen some of the worst logic I've ever seen used come from the mouths of skeptics in regards to the alien phenomenon - which doesn't mean aliens really are visiting here and leaving circles - but if you dismiss the bad logic of these people, it means we still have an effect without a cause - i.e. something unexplained.

And since the stigma of even taking the phenomenon seriously has kept the scientific community rather far away, there is likely never to be any serious push to get to the bottom of this. And while we spend loads of money in projects like SETI and send up hundreds of billions of dollars in probes designed to look for earth-like worlds in the hopes of finding alien life, we're still silly enough to exclaim, "But they aren't coming here ... at all!"

I think there is just as much psychology involved here as there is science - because as long as we find the aliens way out "there" somewhere hundreds of light years away, people can feel comfortable and at ease. But if they're here ... now ... uh oh! And people get panicky.
This is what a truly openminded atheist looks like as opposed to the intransigent, clamped-shut minds, of the fundy atheists like Arq, Rafe, etc. and tje powers that be who control these fora.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:06 PM
 
12,121 posts, read 4,600,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is what a truly openminded atheist looks like as opposed to the intransigent, clamped-shut minds, of the fundy atheists like Arq, Rafe, etc. and tje powers that be who control these fora.
I think I love her.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:12 PM
 
9,761 posts, read 12,365,518 times
Reputation: 3509
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I'm afraid that I can't agree about Doug 'n' Dave, Shirina. I remember the first 'circles' in a limited area of the UK Doug 'n' Dave eventually said they'd done it and this was of course dismissed by the UFO bods. "How could they have done it in different countries?". The copycat effect was ignored. It soon spread and has become an art (or graffiti) form and an advertising medium. Very elaborate figures are made with no great difficulty. I haven't studied the technique as the UFO body - when the whole thing looked too elaborate to be 'made by landing saucers' and became 'message from aliens' until very human square pictures started to appear, then the subject was dropped by Ufologists ("we'll see how this develops") and it developed into a sort of art - form where people get together to do it.

It just isn't a UFO phenomenon any more.
The copycat theory makes so much sense.

Led Zeppelin put some crop pictures on one of their anthologies back in the 90's, saved forever for posterity.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:25 PM
 
4,330 posts, read 1,096,573 times
Reputation: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
(Sorry, that was 'Spirit') Come on, Infinite Being in a test tube? Ha! Here we are so limited...we don't even know
where the 5000 intricate crop circles came from !!! Below is our message sent in '74 with white background....the
Crop circle response in 2001 with brown background THEY sent back !!!
..they sent the same style back...note our image of man...note their image....wild stuff.
Google for article: In 1974 Scientists Sent This Message Into Space, In 2001 We Received A Response
SO his name is Jesus and he is a man that we must all deal with...
why you have spiritualized a perfected human man , a son of a king ?

and the only man to have seen the Father. yes the Father infinite and spiritual .. even then he says that if you see Jesus you see the Father.. they are now one.. and even look alike..
but it is a Man who will rule the next age.

as Father God's Right Arm( which mean has all authority in heaven and earth and all creation ) who has ruled the kingdom of "all willing" before now including the Hebrews /Israel from out of Egypt on and before that, with Job and other sea tribes..
why over-spiritualize the only "eternal God"/Man , the only God men has ever dealt with? He is man and we were made in his image.. so we are kind of like him and he is kind of like us.

only the Son and Angels have any real dealings with the Father, except the prayers of the saints go before him by authority of the cross only.. , as scripture seems to indicate .. .. NOT any of us will deal with the Father directly at least in this age.
i think some will in the next age.. as priests in the temple the Son will build for him.( see Ezekiel)

Last edited by n..Xuipa; 03-14-2019 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:07 AM
 
9,761 posts, read 12,365,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
The copycat theory makes so much sense.

Led Zeppelin put some crop pictures on one of their anthologies back in the 90's, saved forever for posterity.
On the other hand, back when more people took the crop circles seriously, any Christian who was skeptical of them at the time was often seen as narrow-minded.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:25 AM
 
8,784 posts, read 2,186,678 times
Reputation: 6053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I know, right? But, I'm sure you're lying, making that up...
it's pure fantasy...
Have you ever been to one personally? I kind of doubt you have, it looks like you have been reading the data on crop circles that are intentionally deceptive.


Anyone who has been to one (and Im sure there are plenty), know its something much more than the results of some board and rope work. lol
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
14,302 posts, read 11,507,463 times
Reputation: 15791
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Have you ever been to one personally? I kind of doubt you have, it looks like you have been reading the data on crop circles that are intentionally deceptive.
Anyone who has been to one (and Im sure there are plenty), know its something much more than the results of some board and rope work. lol
No, I haven't been to a crop circle personally, YET...I was thinking of a summer drive to one, tho!!!! Got any suggestions...I'm in CO.
But, I know about Vortexes and feeling them like crazy.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:13 PM
 
36,918 posts, read 9,944,046 times
Reputation: 4947
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
The copycat theory makes so much sense.

Led Zeppelin put some crop pictures on one of their anthologies back in the 90's, saved forever for posterity.
It certainly fits the facts better. If the circles had been reported in different countries pretty much at the same time, the 'Doug 'n' Dave' theory would have been untenable. What is remarkable is that the Ufologist apologists ignored totally the obvious 'copycat' explanation. It was only later when i became an Active atheist that I was hit by how Theist apologists reasoned just the same way that UFological apologists did.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:59 PM
 
9,761 posts, read 12,365,518 times
Reputation: 3509
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It certainly fits the facts better. If the circles had been reported in different countries pretty much at the same time, the 'Doug 'n' Dave' theory would have been untenable. What is remarkable is that the Ufologist apologists ignored totally the obvious 'copycat' explanation. It was only later when i became an Active atheist that I was hit by how Theist apologists reasoned just the same way that UFological apologists did.
Of course, because everything you say about theism always sounds completely normal and sane.
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