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Old 03-15-2019, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Secured. Sealed. Loved. Eternally. I <3 You Jesus!
13,223 posts, read 6,804,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Believe it or not people spend time together because they take joy in each other's company. There is kindness and love and they simply adore being with each other. It is not an "obligation" but a sweet delight.

Same with God, same with being in relationship with God. Not a "have to" but a "want to"
Amen!

The error of the OP is in the notion that it is only God who desires our worship. In fact, we're built to worship God. That's what gives us comfort and joy: that we are His possessions. We are the property--the slaves, the bondservants--of Jesus, who purchased us with His Holy Blood. We were purchased at an exceedingly high price! That should tell you how valuable we are!

So we are slaves. We are not our own. That's true now and forever. But although the relationship is not egalitarian in nature, it is the best possible one for us! The relationship is not based on fear, as there's no fear in love. Rather, we are slaves who will serve as eternal objects of the Master's love and kindness. And we will love and worship Him in return because He loved us first and chose to save us!
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:14 PM
 
4,035 posts, read 1,482,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Example of what? The post I quoted seems to suggest what I concluded and if you intended some other meaning or result from the forms required in Islam then you should explain why my conclusion is wrong.
What is your conclusion?
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:16 PM
 
4,035 posts, read 1,482,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
As I said the focus you describe is on
gimme gimme gimme
reward reward reward

That is not a relationship.
It is simply......greed.

From what I know a little about Jewish doctrine, this gimme gimme gimme reward reward reward, sounds more like a mantra of Jewish worship, no?
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:19 PM
 
38,700 posts, read 26,040,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
What is your conclusion?
You can't even be trying to understand Nate with this questioning of the obvious. What is your purpose in this nonsense?
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,911 posts, read 7,371,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You can't even be trying to understand Nate with this questioning of the obvious. What is your purpose in this nonsense?
Obfuscation and avoidance what else?
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,911 posts, read 7,371,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
What is your conclusion?
To put it more succinctly, that Islam is a giant step backward in relating to God and man; using prescribed ritual and practice to govern the life of the believers.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:48 PM
 
4,035 posts, read 1,482,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
To put it more succinctly, that Islam is a giant step backward in relating to God and man; using prescribed ritual and practice to govern the life of the believers.
That’s your conclusion and your opinion which you are entitled to voice. And I have no issue with it.

I don’t think there is much to argue or discuss here, but thanks for answering my question.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:13 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,748 posts, read 3,255,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Now you are talking.

And that's what I am saying, logically speaking it doesn't make sense to have any worship, any worry, any responsibility or any effort in heaven - otherwise it's not heaven (IF in fact it exists).

There is a place in heaven where paintings of extremely beautiful women are placed. A female resident of the heaven will look at those paintings, and would simply wish to become as pretty as one of those females in one of the paintings - and she will become just like that.

If there are still any pains and worries and jobs and responsibilities and evil thoughts/actions in heaven - then it's not heaven.
Yeah that at least makes sense.

Heh, it seems like whenever the Jehovah's Witnesses hand me one of their Watchtower pamphlets, one of the subjects discussed is what either Heaven will be like ... or what it will be like on "paradise earth" after Jesus comes and saves everyone (i.e. if you're not one of the 144,000 or so 'chosen few' who actually go to the real Heaven).

Anyhow, there's always a picture on the front of the pamphlet that shows a typical nuclear family in their Sunday church clothes - dad in a suit, mom in a dress, and brother and sister impeccably dressed with the boy's Young Republican haircut and the girl's braids. And what is this family doing? Why, toiling in a farm field of course - and not with a modern combine or harvester. Oh no ... it's with a hoe and horse-drawn plow.

I mean ... c'mon! Mom has a basket of freshly picked fruit in her hands while father and son work the earth as they did during Biblical times (even though their clothing is modern, their farming methods are ... not). Everyone looks as though they're having orgasms while farming judging by the looks on their faces. And, of course, off to the side is a lion with a lamb nestled between its paws.

Except no one ever seems to say - What makes anyone think this is even remotely close to a paradise on earth? I have to toil in a field all day? With primitive equipment and Bronze Age farming methods? Is living like the Amish something I would want? And wait ... we need food after we die? Does that mean we have to ... you know ... take dumps, too? Do we even get a modern plumbing system for that or will we be forced to do our business in an outhouse?!

I mean, these are things that should no longer concern us once we die. I shouldn't even have to ask these sorts of questions about Heaven - and the Jehovah's Witnesses version of Heaven is one of the least attractive versions of any religion that I've ever seen.

The problem, of course, is answering the age-old question of: "Okay, I'm in Heaven. Now what? What do I do here? What is my purpose?" And so they are forced to come up with *something* to pass away the time. Trouble is, they always come up with something that implies other problems that shouldn't exist in Heaven - needing to eat, for example. Because eating implies that we have to do boring hard work with primitive machines. It implies we also need to use the bathroom - which means worrying about whether there are flush toilets or not. And for food to grow naturally, you need a lot of rain which means plenty of cloudy, rainy, gloomy days in a place that is supposed to be a paradise.

You get the idea. When these authors insist on showing humans engaged in normal human activities in Heaven, then it really can't be Heaven - because the activities they are always shown performing implies other needs - which require even more needs - and on and on. Then it starts getting complicated.

At least the mainstream Biblical authors were correct in keeping Heaven as vague as possible so they didn't run into the same glaring problems that the JW version of Heaven presents.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:28 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,748 posts, read 3,255,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Amen!

In fact, we're built to worship God. That's what gives us comfort and joy: that we are His possessions
Then why do I find the very idea of "worship" reprehensible and disgusting? Apparently I was not built to worship God - or anything or anyone else. Was a built wrong? Because I certainly wasn't built to worship.

As for being "his possessions" - I'm almost literally speechless at such an idea. Is this really what Christianity teaches you?

Am I supposed to have a "relationship" with a being that considers me his "possession?" I've said all along that such a relationship is the same as a master and slave, so thanks for proving my point. As for me, I really only have relationships with people - or gods - that consider me an equal in most situations. Oh, I know we have bosses, police, and other authority figures that can sometimes have a superior position. But those people don't continuously toss their authority in my face by demeaning my existence and regarding me as a possession. No thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
We are the property--the slaves, the bondservants--of Jesus, who purchased us with His Holy Blood.
And then Frodo Baggins went to Mordor to destroy the One Ring to Rule Them All - before Sauron got hold of it.

<<snip>> Because, yeah, what you said is the kind of thing I'm used to hearing in fantasy tropes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
We were purchased at an exceedingly high price! That should tell you how valuable we are!
Something tells me that you are blissfully unaware of how distasteful your metaphors are. You're not doing Jesus any favors - no atheist is going to suddenly run to Jesus because they can't wait to be slaves and bondservants of an unstable psychopath or a mortal cult leader that usurped Judaism during Roman times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
So we are slaves. We are not our own.
Again, your metaphors ... I hope you're not a salesperson in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
That's true now and forever. But although the relationship is not egalitarian in nature, it is the best possible one for us! The relationship is not based on fear, as there's no fear in love. Rather, we are slaves who will serve as eternal objects of the Master's love and kindness. And we will love and worship Him in return because He loved us first and chose to save us!
In all honestly, I have to leave the forum for awhile and wrap my head around the fact that you not only believe this - but are actually happy to believe it. I dunno ... I mean, sometimes ... meh, never mind. It's just inconceivable.

Last edited by mensaguy; 03-16-2019 at 05:54 AM.. Reason: I think I removed an exttraneous quote tag
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Old 03-16-2019, 03:01 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,911 posts, read 7,371,598 times
Reputation: 1671
Well Shirina, that’s what we get for dealing with people. You gotta expect such things.
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