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Old 03-16-2019, 10:13 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Here is my opinion.

Nobody purchased anybody.

We are on our own, and everyone is responsible for his/her own deeds.

You do good, you get good - you do bad, you might face the consequences. Fair, just and logical.

Otherwise, Jesus seem to have made a wrong business deal by purchasing Hitler and people like Ted Bundy, and 100’s of child molesters in the church, 100 and thousands to rapists, killers who took the lives of innocent people, including women and kids, through out human history.

If cronyism through Jesus helps them get away with it then it’s not fair to people like mother Theresa.

What you are saying is there is no right or wrong - do whatever you want to do without any worry because “Jesus has already purchased you” - YEAH RIGHT !!

Good luck with that.
The world is filled with lazy people.

We have to work hard for logic, fairness, and justice.

It's usually about who you know (and in what ways), not what you have done independently as if though other people are omniscient and lack human fallacies.

The Christian scriptures tell them that if they ARE GOOD, they should GET REWARDS. Not simply "do" good to get rewards. The OT and NT scripture tells them that if they "are" good, then they should be happy with temporary unfairness for the sake of the Greater Good (like the Prodigal Son myth).

However, the nun called Mother Theresa was a Roman Catholic Christian, which means she believed that doing good works will be reflected in Heaven, not "equalized" with all cronies in Heaven.

However, I think that if Heaven is all bliss, then it is all equal.

Furthermore, even "born-again" Protestant Christians like I think snj90 currently is, have it in their scriptures and mantras that Avatar Jesus will not "purchase" unrepentant doers of iniquity.

Thus, they cannot do anything sinful/wrong without later asking for repentance. Jesus will thus need "real effort" and continued repentance for any mistakes or purposeful sins. Still, you are right GoCardinals, even someone committing a wrong with the plan to be forgiven merely for asking for forgiveness from the invisible and inaudible Jesus (and faithfully believing to get it for that) who then "sees the error of their ways" and sincerely repents would be forgiven.

Such an evil plan being implemented trillions of times is forgivable, the only "unforgivable sin" is Blasphemy(insulting/name-calling/mud-slinging/unwanted-accusations) against the Holy Spirit (who is Jesus and Father God Yahweh), but Blasphemy against Jesus (who is the Holy Spirit and Father God Yahweh) is forgivable. Blasphemy against Father God Yahweh? Unknown.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,911 posts, read 7,371,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Thatís your conclusion and your opinion which you are entitled to voice. And I have no issue with it.

I donít think there is much to argue or discuss here, but thanks for answering my question.
Well, you could make a case that rituals and required practices do anything but promote a false righteousness and consequent hypocrisy, but Iíd have to agree that it would be an exercise in futility.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:31 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,535 posts, read 4,548,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Future heaven has any responsibilities on angels? I don’t know.

Human residents of heaven are cleaned from any evil desires, and they don’t have any responsibility imposed upo them.

Heaven does not have satan in it, and heaven also has no obnoxious stuff in it - otherwise it’s not heaven.

God has any responsibility in heaven or in this life, towards humans?
No. God does whatever he wants and he is not answerable to anyone. That’s what makes him God.
Fair enough, when I learned about Islam it was not highlighted that their Heaven and God would not be completely consistent. Although Heaven will have "some consistency" in that it will prevent Obnoxious (whoever you choose to dislike or be annoyed by) people from being in it.

Lack of full consistency is a thing which is hard to predict.
Good Luck with that!

I'll stay away from such irresponsible gods and their inconsistent realms.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Secured. Sealed. Loved. Eternally. I <3 You Jesus!
13,223 posts, read 6,804,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The world is filled with lazy people.

We have to work hard for logic, fairness, and justice.

It's usually about who you know (and in what ways), not what you have done independently as if though other people are omniscient and lack human fallacies.

The Christian scriptures tell them that if they ARE GOOD, they should GET REWARDS. Not simply "do" good to get rewards. The OT and NT scripture tells them that if they "are" good, then they should be happy with temporary unfairness for the sake of the Greater Good (like the Prodigal Son myth).

However, the nun called Mother Theresa was a Roman Catholic Christian, which means she believed that doing good works will be reflected in Heaven, not "equalized" with all cronies in Heaven.

However, I think that if Heaven is all bliss, then it is all equal.

Furthermore, even "born-again" Protestant Christians like I think snj90 currently is, have it in their scriptures and mantras that Avatar Jesus will not "purchase" unrepentant doers of iniquity.

Thus, they cannot do anything sinful/wrong without later asking for repentance. Jesus will thus need "real effort" and continued repentance for any mistakes or purposeful sins. Still, you are right GoCardinals, even someone committing a wrong with the plan to be forgiven merely for asking for forgiveness from the invisible and inaudible Jesus (and faithfully believing to get it for that) who then "sees the error of their ways" and sincerely repents would be forgiven.

Such an evil plan being implemented trillions of times is forgivable, the only "unforgivable sin" is Blasphemy(insulting/name-calling/mud-slinging/unwanted-accusations) against the Holy Spirit (who is Jesus and Father God Yahweh), but Blasphemy against Jesus (who is the Holy Spirit and Father God Yahweh) is forgivable. Blasphemy against Father God Yahweh? Unknown.
Anyone who teaches work-based salvation manages to "miss the forest for the trees," as it were.

Repentance was nothing new. In fact, when Jesus came, He called attention to the erroneous ways of the self-righteous teachers of the law. The virtues that Jesus taught us went above and beyond the law. With sinful flesh, no one can up to God's standards. It doesn't matter if you're 99.99% righteous. Let's say someone who lives a long life of righteousness one day commits a murder. He's still guilty of murder! The rest of what's he done doesn't matter. No one can enter God's kingdom through their own righteousness when we all possess sinful flesh!

How, then, could the Gospel be "good news"? The Good News is that Jesus paid the full and complete price for our sins. If you don't believe that Jesus paid the full and complete price for your sins, then why did He die on the Cross?! In becoming born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit, we become dead to sin. It does not mean that we don't sin. Rather, we are engaged in warfare against sin. Salvific faith is our way of saying "yes" to the free gift of eternal life.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:27 PM
 
36,984 posts, read 9,966,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Future heaven has any responsibilities on angels? I don’t know.

Human residents of heaven are cleaned from any evil desires, and they don’t have any responsibility imposed upo them.

Heaven does not have satan in it, and heaven also has no obnoxious stuff in it - otherwise it’s not heaven.

God has any responsibility in heaven or in this life, towards humans?
No. God does whatever he wants and he is not answerable to anyone. That’s what makes him God.
And the most obnoxious thing in Heaven. A god that pays no attention to the views of his people - just because He's strong enough to ignore them? I can't believe that such a god could exist. It's one reason I'm an atheist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Well, you could make a case that rituals and required practices do anything but promote a false righteousness and consequent hypocrisy, but I’d have to agree that it would be an exercise in futility.
Mother Theresa is an example of why Buddhism doesn't work; if she believed that she was doing what was good, who (but humans, using human morality) is to say that she wasn't?

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-16-2019 at 12:37 PM..
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:31 PM
 
36,984 posts, read 9,966,991 times
Reputation: 4949
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
He is talking about thought-crime.

To put in colorfully:

If you work with the intent of retiring, then you don't really "mean" the work, and thus the work is illegitimate. Thus, thought/emotion/feeling-crime.
Very good. We had two kinds of people at work - those who worked to live and those who lived to work. But at an office -policy indoctrination lecture, the question was put 'How many of you would go on working if we gave you the money so you wouldn't have to?" Nobody put their hand up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Which raises the question, how do you know this?

That popped into my head, too. Beginning with what he didn't know (read 'had no convenient explanation for') rather begged the question of how he knew the rest.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:48 PM
 
36,984 posts, read 9,966,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Anyone who teaches work-based salvation manages to "miss the forest for the trees," as it were.

Repentance was nothing new. In fact, when Jesus came, He called attention to the erroneous ways of the self-righteous teachers of the law. The virtues that Jesus taught us went above and beyond the law. With sinful flesh, no one can up to God's standards. It doesn't matter if you're 99.99% righteous. Let's say someone who lives a long life of righteousness one day commits a murder. He's still guilty of murder! The rest of what's he done doesn't matter. No one can enter God's kingdom through their own righteousness when we all possess sinful flesh!

How, then, could the Gospel be "good news"? The Good News is that Jesus paid the full and complete price for our sins. If you don't believe that Jesus paid the full and complete price for your sins, then why did He die on the Cross?! In becoming born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit, we become dead to sin. It does not mean that we don't sin. Rather, we are engaged in warfare against sin. Salvific faith is our way of saying "yes" to the free gift of eternal life.
Assuming that he really did die on the cross (there are several schools of Thought about that) the reason was, he got up the noses of the Roman Administration.

However, the main part of your post makes a partially good point, but does not go far enough. Anyone who believes in the saving grace of Jesus im missing the elephant in the room, owing to having their eyes shut.

Salvation is based on what you believe. If you believe in Jesus as your lord and Savior, you or saved. Whether you are a good person or not is theologically immaterial. According to Christian doctrine, nobody is deserving of salvation. Only Belief will earn you an 'admit one' through the nacreous turnstile. Of course, Christians, unable to shake off (thankfully) the human moral code we all use, feel that ethically God should take our deeds into account, but why should He? He can play the game any way He wishes. And at least one Christian here swore to me that even believing is no guarantee of getting into heaven.

And even if you give up trying to reason it out and just take Pascal's wager - which religion do you bet on? There are really only two - Christianity and Islam, because they are the only ones with clear cut heaven and Hell. You could take your chance on the others. But why should one religion be the Right One, just because it was the dominant one where one was born?
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Secured. Sealed. Loved. Eternally. I <3 You Jesus!
13,223 posts, read 6,804,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Assuming that he really did die on the cross (there are several schools of Thought about that) the reason was, he got up the noses of the Roman Administration.
Wrong. Pontius Pilate found Him to be innocent. It was the crowd who hated Him, and it was Judas who betrayed Him.

Quote:
And even if you give up trying to reason it out and just take Pascal's wager - which religion do you bet on? There are really only two - Christianity and Islam, because they are the only ones with clear cut heaven and Hell. You could take your chance on the others. But why should one religion be the Right One, just because it was the dominant one where one was born?
In fact, I had previously rejected it all. I was an atheist. I was brought to faith through God's own work in my life. I was not looking for Jesus, but He found me anyway.




As for Islam...



Last edited by snj90; 03-16-2019 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:47 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,535 posts, read 4,548,252 times
Reputation: 1260
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Anyone who teaches work-based salvation manages to "miss the forest for the trees," as it were.

Repentance was nothing new. In fact, when Jesus came, He called attention to the erroneous ways of the self-righteous teachers of the law. The virtues that Jesus taught us went above and beyond the law. With sinful flesh, no one can up to God's standards. It doesn't matter if you're 99.99% righteous. Let's say someone who lives a long life of righteousness one day commits a murder. He's still guilty of murder! The rest of what's he done doesn't matter. No one can enter God's kingdom through their own righteousness when we all possess sinful flesh!

How, then, could the Gospel be "good news"? The Good News is that Jesus paid the full and complete price for our sins. If you don't believe that Jesus paid the full and complete price for your sins, then why did He die on the Cross?! In becoming born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit, we become dead to sin. It does not mean that we don't sin. Rather, we are engaged in warfare against sin. Salvific faith is our way of saying "yes" to the free gift of eternal life.
Why establish or change arbitrary rules to begin with? What need is there of a cross and assisted suicide for a God?

Matthew 25:30-46 does not include:

"But the goats that called me 'Lord, my lord' and asked for my forgiveness, I was kind to them and spared them from the tormenting fires that they had loved to reserve for their enemies. I spared them from Zechariah's purifying fires, I saved them from refinement and testing."

But Matt 25 does say something else, it seems to point to something more like:
If you have faith in the poor, do you have faith in Jesus?
If you have faith in those in jail, do you have faith in Jesus?
If you have faith in the light of goodness upon our world, do you have faith in Jesus?
If you have faith in the Way, the Truth, and the Life.... do you have faith in Jesus?

So in assured fact, Shakespeare was right! "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Iesus, Yoshua, Joshua, Hosea, Jesķs, Isa.
Which stories do you and your pagan ancestors prefer? Or do you throw all good people by the wayside, even if they were in your family tree?

Neither does Matthew 7:15-23 say anything about Paul, later on, being right that all you need is a character's name in your heart. Even if that would be a great trick to rake in the converts.

If you have faith in a character in a book for which the book says that the character will say to some of his believers and miracle workers in his name and for his worship "Depart from me, I never knew you" because they worked iniquity, does that not mean that you have faith that faith -as belief alone- is no true faith at all?

Does manure, under a different name, change its scent?

This is why Roman Catholics believe that good works: as pious and virtuous actions are necessary to (and necessarily follow from) a true faith.

Luke 19:27 also says that if they don't bend the knee (in the context of accepting high-Interest Rates for Loans), they should be slaughtered in front of him (Is he God, is he everywhere, is he only where two are gathered in his name?).

So pick and choose your cronyism carefully:

Mathew and Luke's high cost for genuine Jesus' blood (although one is more cronyist than the other)...
or Paul's equally high cost which is disguised as cheap in some parts but not so much in others?

How then, can such a toiling-spinning-struggling-fighting faith be a "free gift"? Paul says that you must remember that you have "sold yourself for a price" and thus should work as a slave does to payoff this "free" gift. You cannot have two masters, your laziness-ease-comfort and a character in a book. Ha! Comical, yet a pity.

Indeed, the blood religion inherited from Abraham's young (3-year-old and younger) animal bisection carcass seal to summon an urn fire demon for fertility-pact and politics-backing magic is false, confusing, and dividing.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 03-16-2019 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:52 PM
 
36,984 posts, read 9,966,991 times
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Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
Wrong. Pontius Pilate found Him to be innocent. It was the crowd who hated Him, and it was Judas who betrayed Him.
That's what the Gospels say, but it makes no sense. We can discuss it, if you like. The blasphemy charhe is meaningless in Judaism - only in Christianity. The sedition charge (which is actually the one on the crross) was alreasdy known to Pilate who would have been on duty at the temple with near 1,00o troops when Jesus supposedly drove the traders out. And he was no weak appeaser.

Quote:
In fact, I had previously rejected it all. I was an atheist. I was brought to faith through God's own work in my life. I was not looking for Jesus, but He found me anyway.
And you may now reject the evidence that none of it is true. It's your call.

Quote:
As for Islam...


I'll give that a watch, but the fact is, that, even if none of it is true, neither are the gospels.

Ok I shall go on but the point is that Gabriel gave Daniel and the NT messages in the Bible and instructed Muhammad in the Quran. No problem so far - what he was told to say is true and from God.

The argument then goes that the Quran denies that 'God has had a son'. So (of course) it must be wrong. Let me put it to you that Paul did not believe that Jesus was the son of God conceived by God, but a man of the line of David according to the 'flesh' (and not of the lineage of God) and was (as we can see at the baptism) received the Holy spirit which descended on him. The claims of Matthew and like that Jesus was 'made' by God does not make God his biological father in any comprehensible sense (even if one believes the nativities, which nobody who has honestly studied them can). So the Quran is winning so far and Christian doctrine has simply misunderstood its own Holy Book.

I'll leave that with you and continue with the video.

Ok. Apart from taking 'son of God' too literally, the refutation of what Gabriel told Muhammad s refuted by John, who has never heard of the transfiguration and pretty much says that Jesus was not really born in Bethlehem. Whose word are we going to take - Gabriel who got it from God or John who contradicts the other gospels on various occasions. The Red Flag - which is the same one waved serveral times is against John, not the Quran.

Now the denial of Jesus' death is a better one, but even here, it can be read that jesus did not die permanently, because God raised him up - which is what Christianity believes. Aside from which this is just what Paul thought - and witness none of the events - Gabriel (as the video says) did. And even the Disciples (if he got the story from them) did not witness these events; they only found the tomb empty and saw Jesus alive. And be aware that the crucifixion story reads as though the intention of Arimathea was to get Jesus off the cross alive (we can discuss that too, if you wish). So far the Quran is still winning.

So, it is NOT established that the angel in the Quran was lying, even if one believes what was reported, aside from what John and Paul believed. So what is coming next -that the angel in the Quran was Satan is not going to follow. But, even if one believes what is reported in the Bible, aside from misundertandings of what the angel was actually saying, who is to say which one is lying?

The quotes come from Paul (aside that they are from some of the disputed epistles) and he never met Jesus in the flesh. He didn't know who he was talking to. And bear in mind, the Jews think Paul is a liar. Who is to say that Satan did not mislead man away from Judaism and then God put it right again with a miracle -working angel who got an illiterate to produce some of the finest religious literature ever (so the Muslims say of the quality of the verse).

I'd say the Quran wins on points, clearly. The Gospels are largely lies with a little truth mixed in. As an atheist or anything else, I certainly can reject the conclusion of the video, as well as the final attempt to brainwash us into Christian Faith.

Now, don't think that I believe the Quran either because it also gets some things wrong, because science refutes them, not because Christianity disagrees.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-16-2019 at 02:43 PM..
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