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"Faith" is difficult term to use when you're talking about an inanimate object; that's why I switched my analogy to having faith in the employee. Expectation is a better word, when you're talking about a chair.
It is my habit to sit in a chair without testing it first, because the typical outcome is the chair doesn't break.
So I want to get back to faith in the employee. I have faith that he will do a good job for me, even if it gets really difficult to deliver the goods. He will faithfully deliver them, no matter what it takes.
The chair will just break, if there's a problem. And I won't be stunned and upset about it. Oops, that chair leg broke - better get it fixed. My expectations didn't come true.
Whereas if the employee that I had faith in ended up blowing off the errand and going to the beach instead of returning from Houston, I'd be hurt and angry.
Because I had faith in him, and he betrayed that faith.
Chairs are inanimate object, without Will (I sometimes wonder about some of my clutter, though) but Employees have Will and can be more unpredictable. Yet we deal with them using expectations and experience and betting (mentally) on the chances of them acting as hoped for. Experience, not Faith' is still the same way of dealing with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC
Well, I've explained it to YOU and YOU'RE ignoring it.
Maybe I'll come at this a different way.
This guy pretty much ALWAYS wears black t-shirts. I don't recall ever a time when I saw him that he wasn't wearing a black t-shirt. My expectation is, that when I see him today, he will be wearing a dark t-shirt. I don't have FAITH that he will be wearing one, because my expectation doesn't transcend a mere belief in the likelihood that he will be wearing his usual clothes. Based on my observation, it's a solid bet he's wearing a black shirt.
I have FAITH, though, that he will be successful in getting the machine from Houston because I have FAITH in him. Faith in our relationship, faith in his integrity, faith in his work ethic. Faith in his willingness to step out and maybe take risks to complete the task he's promised to do.
There. I've tried to explain it again - the difference in expectation and faith.
I think the thing here is, if you don't experience "faith" you don't know the difference in the feeling that accompanies your expectation of seeing him in a black t-shirt vs. your faith that he will be loyal to you and thereby achieve the task of transporting the needed equipment.
No - you have an expectation based on practical experience of what he'll be wearing. Just as you have that he will do a good job. It isn't Faith' in the religious sense, where it is based on what you hope for without any sound evidence for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC
Faith and trust are synonyms.
The very definition of faith is "trust in something".
They are related, but not the same. One is trust based on practical experience. The other is trust based on your own hopes, without any sound evidence, or even in spite of it. If the employee (or the chair) repeatedly let you down, yet you kept using them in hopes that they would act as you hoped - that would be more akin to Faith.
Chan (sinified) Buddhism
"...For example, he mentions the most famous koan in Chinese Zen (Chan). A monk during the T'ang era asked if dogs have Buddha-nature, to which the master, Chao-chou, replied, "Mu!" While a simple translation means, "not; nothing," you might assume the master was screaming, "no!" Yet this "first koan" is not so simple. In Chan, this koan is described as "the gate to enlightenment." (The Big Think)
The other monks tried to find a rational answer to the question. The one who put the sandals on his head was making a meaningless answer, showing his better understanding.
I never heard of Ch'an or Chan Buddhism!!! I'm not Buddhist, so...
"There are two paths that lead to the gate of eternal life:
One bores into the earth like a worm, or like a dragon, flies into the sky" Interesting!
Quote:
I am (as Mystic says) a concrete thinker. I am more concerned with this world since
my efforts to 'fly into the sky' just left me with back -strain. I can give reasons why I 'bore into the ground" but wouldn't quarrel with anyone who aims at the sky
And I respect you for this.
I am a right brainer primarily...I know it is maddening.
I'm more of the Jon Liv Seagull type.
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"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
They are related, but not the same. One is trust based on practical experience. The other is trust based on your own hopes, without any sound evidence, or even in spite of it. If the employee (or the chair) repeatedly let you down, yet you kept using them in hopes that they would act as you hoped - that would be more akin to Faith.
Yeah, I think I'm going to side with the thesaurus on this one, thanks.
The thesaurus defined faith as "trust in something", and then went on to offer a list of other synonyms.
Yes. But there's more than that. It the common denominator but ignores the different applications.
The first def. that came up on Google was:
1complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence; More
2.
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
"bereaved people who have shown supreme faith"
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, persuasion, religious persuasion, religious belief, belief, code of belief, ideology, creed, teaching, dogma, doctrine.
Two applications - one based on experience (and evidence here - a politician did something honest) and other is "spiritual conviction rather than proof."
To ignore the difference in the two applications is recipe for an equivocation fallacy. Which is clearly what you prefer.
No I'm not referring to the Gospels, thrill...I do think they tried to complete whole sentences he could have said!! I do....but I don't know that they got them (even ONE) even close to what he meant...He could have said,
" 'I Am' is the Way'....instead of, 'I am the Way'.
He could have said to the criminal on the right, 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise', instead of , "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise’' (Supposedly he spent 3 days in hell? How was the criminal in paradise with him that same day?)
Do you feel comforted when you mourn? What was left out? Ask any priest if he was able to comfort a mother or a wife over the grave of her son or husband. Good luck with that ..platitudes, platitudes.
What did we miss....there were no tape recorders!
Well, your examples are all in the realm of those infamous, "What if..." and "Could be..." and my favorite, "Tradition says...." all of which are possible in the sense that anything not proven to be false by science is possible. But here's something 99.999% of Christians don't know because their pastors would never let the cat out of the bag about this:
The Hindu Sanskrit text, "Mahabharata" dated to about the same time as the Old Testament, 500 BCE contains nearly everything Jesus said about himself. You know the 7 "I Am's" in John? Look at Krishna's 7 great "I AM's, which Krishna said about himself 500 years before Jesus:
Quote:
I AM the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods (BG 5.29)
I AM the original seed of all existences (BG 7.10)
I AM the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I AM the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable OM. I AM also the Rg, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas.” (BG 9.17)
I AM the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.” (BG 10.8)
I AM the Supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I AM the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings.” (BG 10.20)
(This "could have" been where John Patmos got his famous "I am the Alpha and the Omega")
I AM the Lord of all wealth (Bg 10.23)
I AM seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.
So in retrospect John "could have" gotten everything about Jesus from the Mahabharata, right?
(You meant of the 5 senses) Forget it...they
have to have it visible, under a microscope, provable with math...they have no idea about any other
'realm' except this 3rd dimension. And, oh well, that's the way they are made ....as we
are made the way we are.
You can give examples of experiments on camera of tumors disappearing in 4 minutes
with 3 healers over it...it will mean nothing.
Jesus could heal a blind man in front of them ...they would say it was a coincidence.
Save your breath. I don't say that in despair.
Not at all true. If the blindness was medically confirmed and in no way psychosomatic, none of us would discredit it. Examples given if needed but they shouldn't be necessary anymore than the so oft used missing limbs.
One time, give us one time where it's irrefutable...…………….
Yeah, I think I'm going to side with the thesaurus on this one, thanks.
Yes, you would because it's all you have to grasp onto having been soundly routed. There is a difference in them that you simply don't want to see...because it proves you wrong.
...and people wonder why we loose patience with these people. (shaking head)
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My 'concrete thinking' madddens Mystic phd, though.
