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Old Today, 03:58 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 3,378,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Oh dear. Having set out, quite excellently, the difference between reasonable expectation and Faith, you then slap the two together.

Well at least, thanks for pointing up my other argument - about having ears to hear is one thing, using them listen is another. You have now sidelined a grasp on the way the world works in favour of a Faith -claim.
It's because faith isn't just a reasonable expectation, Transponder.

It transcends that.

If you don't know the feeling of "faith", Transponder, then it's as difficult to explain to you as what a citrus blossom smells like.

A car starting, that you brought up, actually isn't the best way to showcase "faith". I want to go back to my transporter of the machine from Houston analogy. Not only has my experience been good with him on a professional level and I know he's a good driver, I have faith he will do this for me and make it work, against all odds. If he has a flat tire on the way from Houston I have faith he'll fix it and soldier on. If he wakes up with a migraine I have faith he will find another reliable driver.

I shouldn't have run with your analogy of the car and stuck to my choice analogy of the employee.
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Old Today, 04:11 PM
 
234 posts, read 40,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
You can go on absolutely blind faith, which is kind of silly, or you can go by faith of experience.

If I need a piece of equipment here tomorrow from Houston to do a job, and I haven't yet found anyone to transport it, I could call the customer and say, blindly, "I have faith the machine will be here tomorrow". Just taking a flyer.

OR

If I have found the transporter, and know him to be a very good and reliable driver, and he's agreed to take the job, I could then call the customer with reason behind my faith, and say "I have faith the machine will be here tomorrow".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
It turns into faith when you don't have a backup plan. Yes, in my experience, my car will start. But I show my FAITH by not having a backup car in the driveway for my run to the airport tomorrow.

Similarly, when I take my laptop on an overnight trip, and I've just replaced the battery in the mouse, I pack more batteries just in case. It's highly likely the mouse battery will last - it certainly should last 10X the amount of time I will be using it, in my experience, but I don't have faith that it will not go dead.
Thereby extending the string of examples that fail because they are all based on real world, demonstrable experience (i.e., evidence)... which should not be conflated with faith in the absence of evidence (if you want the point to stand).

In this and other threads we have: faith that the ladder will hold me (like it did the previous 100 times), that the airplane will take off (like it did the previous 100 times), that the medicine will work (like it did the previous 100 times), that the pizza will taste good (like it did the previous 100 times), that the transporter will deliver the machine I ordered (like it did the previous 100 times), that my car will start (like it did the previous 100 times), that my laptop mouse will work (like it did the previous 100 times)..... NONE of which is analogous to the faith that we are discussing. Every single one of those is backed by experience, which gives us reasonable expectation they will continue.

I am still waiting for someone to offer up analogous examples of faith in events that have never been seen before, or at least have never been experienced by more than one of us in the same way. Like "I know bigfoot will be waiting behind that tree, because that's where I saw him last time" or "I know there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow because that happens every time it rains" or....

The reason they don't, is that this (religion) is the only area of our lives where we accept things on faith without any supporting evidence, of the kind that can be experienced in the same way by all of us.
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Old Today, 04:16 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 3,378,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
Thereby extending the string of examples that fail because they are all based on real world, demonstrable experience (i.e., evidence)... which should not be conflated with faith in the absence of evidence (if you want the point to stand).

In this and other threads we have: faith that the ladder will hold me (like it did the previous 100 times), that the airplane will take off (like it did the previous 100 times), that the medicine will work (like it did the previous 100 times), that the pizza will taste good (like it did the previous 100 times), that the transporter will deliver the machine I ordered (like it did the previous 100 times), that my car will start (like it did the previous 100 times), that my laptop mouse will work (like it did the previous 100 times)..... NONE of which is analogous to the faith that we are discussing. Every single one of those is backed by experience, which gives us reasonable expectation they will continue.

I am still waiting for someone to offer up analogous examples of faith in events that have never been seen before, or at least have never been experienced by more than one of us in the same way. Like "I know bigfoot will be waiting behind that tree, because that's where I saw him last time" or "I know there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow because that happens every time it rains" or....

The reason they don't, is that this (religion) is the only area of our lives where we accept things on faith without any supporting evidence, of the kind that can be experienced in the same way by all of us.
We accept things on faith without any supporting evidence all the time.

People even accept things by faith when the evidence points away from their belief.

And that's why we will still get in cars and drive down the highway, but believe that our children are at enormous risk for being snatched off the street by a crazed murderer.
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Old Today, 04:29 PM
 
36,808 posts, read 9,905,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
It's because faith isn't just a reasonable expectation, Transponder.

It transcends that.

If you don't know the feeling of "faith", Transponder, then it's as difficult to explain to you as what a citrus blossom smells like.

A car starting, that you brought up, actually isn't the best way to showcase "faith". I want to go back to my transporter of the machine from Houston analogy. Not only has my experience been good with him on a professional level and I know he's a good driver, I have faith he will do this for me and make it work, against all odds. If he has a flat tire on the way from Houston I have faith he'll fix it and soldier on. If he wakes up with a migraine I have faith he will find another reliable driver.

I shouldn't have run with your analogy of the car and stuck to my choice analogy of the employee.
You may slice the way our experience of the world and what we can expect and how we learn to cope any way you like - it is still not Faith. Nothing like religious Faith.

But I know what you mean about the feeling. I could say that isn't faith itself which is more a statement of belief and damn' the evidence. But I get the association. The Feeling gives you confidence that the Claims under Faith are correct.

Unfortunately I have seen too many faith Claims go down the toilet to credit that this Feeling - no matter how powerful - is a way of accessing any True facts. It may be connecting with some divinity - but not, I have to say, the one in the Bible. Which is false.

No more or less than the Feeling a Muslim or Hindu may get and possibly connects them with "God" - but not the god of their Holy Books. That Feeling may yet happen to me. Indeed I became Buddhist for a while with the intent of experiencing this Experience.

It didn't as I have the wrong kind of knees. But I don't deny the experience. Only question that it tells you anything about this or that Particular Personal God.

That is where faith comes in, goes out, and is discharged into the drain. It is not Faith that defiles a man, but the misuse of a mind.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; Today at 04:44 PM..
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Old Today, 05:08 PM
Status: "M.A.G.A." (set 11 hours ago)
 
Location: Spaceship Earth
15,843 posts, read 8,588,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
Thereby extending the string of examples that fail because they are all based on real world, demonstrable experience (i.e., evidence)... which should not be conflated with faith in the absence of evidence (if you want the point to stand).

In this and other threads we have: faith that the ladder will hold me (like it did the previous 100 times), that the airplane will take off (like it did the previous 100 times), that the medicine will work (like it did the previous 100 times), that the pizza will taste good (like it did the previous 100 times), that the transporter will deliver the machine I ordered (like it did the previous 100 times), that my car will start (like it did the previous 100 times), that my laptop mouse will work (like it did the previous 100 times)..... NONE of which is analogous to the faith that we are discussing. Every single one of those is backed by experience, which gives us reasonable expectation they will continue.

I am still waiting for someone to offer up analogous examples of faith in events that have never been seen before, or at least have never been experienced by more than one of us in the same way. Like "I know bigfoot will be waiting behind that tree, because that's where I saw him last time" or "I know there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow because that happens every time it rains" or....

The reason they don't, is that this (religion) is the only area of our lives where we accept things on faith without any supporting evidence, of the kind that can be experienced in the same way by all of us.
Regarding the bolded...

Faith is not blind, but you’re correct, we experience spiritual things differently.
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Old Today, 05:19 PM
 
3,472 posts, read 678,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach in His place , the disciples mission is only to make the introduction .
The weight of responsibility is on the one wanting this relationship.
The more desperately I pursued scriptures and seeking God's teaching above that of men, the greater my relationship grew and the Holy Spirit Jesus introduced into my life so that God can more freely teach me both the scriptures and things beyond scriptures and direction in every day life and reaching those God intends me to touch .

How would you know this, and how would any one else come to the same conclusion?
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Old Today, 05:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Anything for which you feel there is zero evidence.
So in other words, we could apply the same thing to people who believe in fairies? (I know someone like that, actually).

Does that make it true though, and shouldn't we want to know what is true?
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Old Today, 05:22 PM
 
9,724 posts, read 12,349,551 times
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The most important thing he said was that he would send his Holy Spirit.
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Old Today, 05:26 PM
 
3,472 posts, read 678,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I'm kind of struggling with your question, so maybe I'm not answering it correctly.

You can go on absolutely blind faith, which is kind of silly, or you can go by faith of experience.

If I need a piece of equipment here tomorrow from Houston to do a job, and I haven't yet found anyone to transport it, I could call the customer and say, blindly, "I have faith the machine will be here tomorrow". Just taking a flyer.

OR

If I have found the transporter, and know him to be a very good and reliable driver, and he's agreed to take the job, I could then call the customer with reason behind my faith, and say "I have faith the machine will be here tomorrow".

Sure, but you're faith in this case, is based on actual, factual, probably repeatable, experience. But how can anyone have the same faith experience based on the biblical stories. Or the ones in the koran? Or the vedas? All the proponents of the non-biblical religions hold that their truths are true also due to faith. How would anyone, or could anyone, know that the faith provides the truth?
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Old Today, 05:27 PM
 
3,472 posts, read 678,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Jesus was God`s promise of the rejection of the scribes ..... Only time Jesus wrote was on the temple floor as the women caught in adultery , which is assumed that Jesus wrote the commandment of adultery by the hand of God which Moses got years before ............ See God promised to put the Word of God on the heart of the believer ... Where then the disciples must of took record of the Word and miracles of Jesus Christ, where the Holy Book was wrote
How do you know this to be true?
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