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Old 03-13-2019, 05:25 PM
 
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i would put literal religious people and anti-religious people in the same category. compare their post to one another. same rants, different beliefs. some event in their lives have forced their brains to grab onto something, anything, to help them keep it together.

"no free will" can be scary for some. So the brain grabs what it an.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:10 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 688,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Did you read the underlined part?Do you understand what a 'snippet' is ? There are tons of posts that do it successfully
Yup, read it and understand it. But there is one moderator who has three times nailed me for it. I'm not walking down that road again, besides, all the information is in the link I provided. Read it.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:25 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I can't imagine why the researchers thought there would be a correlation between people who have FWB (free will beliefs, presumedly that they believe people have free will to choose their behaviors) would be more moral than those who think people DON'T have free will, which I guess would be insane people, or incarcerated people.

If asked, "Do you believe you have the free will to decide for yourself whether you want to commit a crime, or whether you want to be a law-abiding citizen" WHO would say no, they don't have that free will?

And BTW, the headline of this thread is wrong. They found no correlation. Not that people who believe in free will aren't nice people.
Someone under the influence of drugs, a tumor, their life circumstances, etc.

Will is not as black and white as most people are willing to be comfortable with.

And there is LITTLE which is "free" about it.

Is human will free from influence? No.
Is human will free from constraints? No.
Is human will free from consequences? No.

And on and on it goes.

A human is as free to choose* as an ant, roach, mouse, dog, horse, or monkey.

Spoiler
*free to choose in a limited time among limited and consequential choices based on their current mental state and previous experience, etc.


Otherwise, (and I believe this is the case) the ability to consider would play in part in "Real Will" as well.
So some people's "will" would be considerably more "free" than others'.

Kind of like some people's "speech=money" is more quantitatively powerful and thus more effective and Plutocratic than others'.
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:40 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,748 posts, read 3,255,415 times
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
When you say, "You don't have to", didn't you just use "free-will"?
I said "I don't have to" because I don't have to worry about heaven or hell or offending some Bronze Age god.

I do have free will of a limited sort, constrained by my own mind and subconscious. But I don't have free will to pick and choose what I believe. I don't have free will to pick and choose what foods I like, what music I listen to, who I fall in love with, etc.

But I don't have to worry about whether free will comes from a god or where I end up when I die. That's all a myth - stories invented by people with no knowledge whatsoever of psychiatry, psychology, sociology, or the human brain.
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:45 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,748 posts, read 3,255,415 times
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Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
i would put literal religious people and anti-religious people in the same category. compare their post to one another. same rants, different beliefs. some event in their lives have forced their brains to grab onto something, anything, to help them keep it together.

"no free will" can be scary for some. So the brain grabs what it an.
Really, Arach Angle - your attempt to remain smugly above the fray isn't fooling anyone, ya know.

I doubt anyone thinks you're espousing a superior position. The only reason why you say what you do is because you're not a member of either camp and therefore think you're above both of them.

It's a very off-putting way to communicate.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:13 AM
 
2,611 posts, read 1,420,678 times
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Originally Posted by normstad View Post
The recent studies show that those that have the strongest belief in free will, (usually the more religious, the more the concept is promulgated) in making moral decisions, found that unexpectedly, that there was no correlation between the promoters of free will and moral behavior.

But then, if we reflect on how judgemental those with the strongest religious convictions are of others, is this really surprising? The worst of the worst have recently even suggested that rape victims should be happy and blessed that as a 13 year old they are pregnant, they are usually the ones with the most radical prejudices against "others", whether those "others" are or a different race, creed, culture or religion, and are the ones who often are caught doing morally reprehensible crimes.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....48550618780732
In the case of the rape example, the type of free-will being pushed here is to decide for the victim which effect of the rape will be the actual problem. We live in a cause and effect world. Then we decide which of these will be a problem and come up with a solution. Telling the victim to be happy with her situation is an attempt to identify her mental state as a problem. A poor mental state, in their mind, may lead to an undesirable choice, the effect. So the mental state is a potential problem and must be known quickly and changed quickly.

By presenting the victim with an alternative state of mind, they believe they are giving the rape victim a chance to practice free will. But what they really presented was an agenda to have influence over one's choices, to "guide" through the choices. I call it an agenda because I am wondering if they would approach a boy who was raped in the same manner.

Our free-will is limited by choices. Since life is not perfect and the choices presented will not always be the best, it is not surprising the free-will believers are not morally superior. I am not sure how you connect religious people with the participants of the study.

Last edited by elyn02; 03-15-2019 at 04:26 AM..
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:57 PM
 
37,007 posts, read 9,966,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
The recent studies show that those that have the strongest belief in free will, (usually the more religious, the more the concept is promulgated) in making moral decisions, found that unexpectedly, that there was no correlation between the promoters of free will and moral behavior.

But then, if we reflect on how judgemental those with the strongest religious convictions are of others, is this really surprising? The worst of the worst have recently even suggested that rape victims should be happy and blessed that as a 13 year old they are pregnant, they are usually the ones with the most radical prejudices against "others", whether those "others" are or a different race, creed, culture or religion, and are the ones who often are caught doing morally reprehensible crimes.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....48550618780732
The general view of the article is that such a claim is 'overstated'. A case can be made either way. I would guess that a Free Will Believer means Theist - and probably Christian, because Free Will is a crypto- doctrinal tenet of faith that has arisen out of the need to refute the 'Problem of Evil' (not that it does).

I rather take the same view of the existence of free will as i do of the existence of many things in nature. 'Does it exist?' Surely it does, if only as a human convention, like art, society and ethics. It's odd because in one of the debates I watched recently the Theist accused atheists of denying Free Will. That claim wasn't refuted at the time, but I don't see how atheists can reject the existence of choice even if one supposes (as i do) that there are causes for every decision we make.

So whether one like the conclusion or not depends (I suppose ) on whether it's Theists or atheists that are supposed to be Freewill -Believers and thus more immoral. Myself, I'll go with 'don't put too much weight on those findings'.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:41 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Transponder, I still didn't read the article. Is that why I still don't understand how a "all of our choices and actions are free-will" believer would ever assume that an "all our choices are dependent and predestined" believer would be less or more moral.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:00 PM
 
37,007 posts, read 9,966,991 times
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I stopped reading here.

What are you saying here? The non-religious or the atheists do not tend to believe in free-will?

What do they believe in then? Do the Atheists believe that we are pre-programmed to do whatever we do in our day to day life, we don't have any choice?

OK who pre-programmed us and took away our choice of free-will?
The way I see it - and many would disagree - is that (like many things in life - it is not what we think it is. Wemake choices. of course we do -it's hardly deniable, but are they random or based on reasons? Obviously based on reasons most of the time, even if they are not good ones.

I suspect that there are reasons (like turtles) all the way down, but that's an academic point. If it so, the illusion of free will remains and it functions quite convincingly - as do the illusions of morality, art and democracy. Brexit, most certainly turned the spotlight on just how committed to Democratic choice as an unbreakable rule we were committed to.

This of course, is irrelevant to the whole point of the Free will argument. We make thinking choices. Of course we do. Does that get God off the hook? There are many debates about this, but what it boils down to is - the responsibility for what we do is ours even if that's how God made us - because God says so and who is going to make say otherwise, Eh?
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Old 03-17-2019, 05:07 PM
 
5,795 posts, read 1,563,789 times
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Originally Posted by normstad View Post
The recent studies show that those that have the strongest belief in free will, (usually the more religious, the more the concept is promulgated)

The Bible says God himself doesn't have free will to sin. So I'm not sure how you can really make that claim.

Quote:
in making moral decisions, found that unexpectedly, that there was no correlation between the promoters of free will and moral behavior.

But then, if we reflect on how judgemental those with the strongest religious convictions are of others, is this really surprising? The worst of the worst have recently even suggested that rape victims should be happy and blessed that as a 13 year old they are pregnant, they are usually the ones with the most radical prejudices against "others", whether those "others" are or a different race, creed, culture or religion, and are the ones who often are caught doing morally reprehensible crimes.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....48550618780732
Do you have a point? If so, what?
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