U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-22-2019, 11:55 AM
 
2,684 posts, read 1,447,430 times
Reputation: 2912

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
People only have the ability to apply their interpretation of a subject to their own behavior. Unfortunately, not everyone’s mind is rational or healthy - and that’s when the negative influence can materialize.
Thank you for your response. I agree with you.

Here is what is often said: Morality goes into decline, when humans do not apply religion correctly into their lives. *Correctly* becomes the focus of discussion. But for me, the words 'morality' and 'human' are key to me. It implies not one's own morality, but other people. This is when a claim has overstepped it's boundary. No big deal. I do it as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-22-2019, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,541 posts, read 8,113,653 times
Reputation: 14827
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
No, you said ‘religion always claims to make things better’ (post 11). Religion doesn’t claim anything - people do. It’s in the application - not the subject itself. Sometimes it does influence one’s behavior positively and for the better. And other times, it influences in a negative way. That’s why it goes back to my original point (post #2) - religion in and of itself shouldn’t be seen as negative or positive. It’s all in the application.
You are splitting hairs.

People are influenced by religion, and people speak up and make statements on behalf of their religious beliefs, reinforcing the religious infurnce they are under and extending the influence to others.

Religion is a meme. While it is not conscious or self aware, it does have a impact on people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 12:52 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,436 posts, read 281,398 times
Reputation: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
You are splitting hairs.

People are influenced by religion, and people speak up and make statements on behalf of their religious beliefs, reinforcing the religious infurnce they are under and extending the influence to others.

Religion is a meme. While it is not conscious or self aware, it does have a impact on people.
People are sometimes negatively influenced by love, too - due to their own mental health imbalances, frustrations, or interpretations. Some people kill out of jealousy or what they perceive as ‘love’. Does that make love ‘bad’? Should love be seen as ‘negative’ as a result because it has the power to influence people negatively as well as positively? Of course not.

Again, it’s people’s unhealthy minds which go haywire. We can’t hold ‘religion’ accountable for the negative (or ‘criminal’) actions of some theists anymore than we can see alcohol as inherently negative because it causes alcoholism in some people.

What’s seen as negative (or rather, what should be seen as negative) is people’s specific actions (often based on religion) - not religion itself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 01:40 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,436 posts, read 281,398 times
Reputation: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
Thank you for your response. I agree with you.

Here is what is often said: Morality goes into decline, when humans do not apply religion correctly into their lives. *Correctly* becomes the focus of discussion. But for me, the words 'morality' and 'human' are key to me. It implies not one's own morality, but other people. This is when a claim has overstepped it's boundary. No big deal. I do it as well.
In my opinion, morality is a different subject entirely. Just as religion shouldn’t be seen as universally negative, it can’t be seen as universally positive either. It relinquishes the power of our own minds - to interpret, think, and apply (or reject) principles of our own choosing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 01:42 PM
Status: "Gone" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,830 posts, read 3,289,839 times
Reputation: 4020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradpaisley94 View Post
My post is directed towards the developed world. I know that things are very different in poor and/or undeveloped countries. Today it feels like everybody is against religion. Especially Christianity. Las I’ve been living in countries like Sweden, Norway, Canada and Australia it really feels like most people see religion as backward, oppressive, evil, stupid and so forth. Anybody religious is either stupid or weird. Many bad things are blamed on religion. Most wars, deaths, scandals. This is for me a mystery. Sure, the crusades were bad. But, so were many other wars during those times, as well as before and after. And, the crusades were not religious, they were solidly politics disguised as religion. I don’t see many people blaming atheism for millions of murders in Soviet or China. Sure, the paedophile scandal has been really tragic across the catholic church. But, research shows that paedophiles are even more frequent in for example schools and in sports clubs than in churches. But, I don’t see anybody blaming those institutions.

Maybe people are angry at the “blind worship”. But, the western man still worships a lot, even if it is not God. Money, materialistic things, celebrities, fame and themselves. Depression, anxiety and stress is among the things created by this knew worship.
Maybe you compare with more religious societies or countries and think that “we have developed far better than them” or that our standard of living is higher. But, is that not mostly because of our exploitation today and throughout history of the earths resources and other peoples? Is that a sustainable way of life? No, it is not.

Religion has not given anything to society? Think again, many of history’s greatest minds within philosophy, politics, science and so forth were devout religions people. Christianity is the ruling power? Think again, 80% or more of religiously oppressed globally are Christians.
So, I’m not saying that you have to believe or be religious, but why the hostility. Why is Christianity seen as backward?
Don’t you see anything good in what has been accomplished in our societies thanks to Christianity? What’s so bad with “love thy neighbour”?
The answer is - because it is negative.

Sure, it can do certain things to individuals on an individual basis. But religion should be a private, personal, individual choice. The very moment religion organized itself and denominations arose - then completely different religions arose out of that - it became divisive, bigoted, harmful, hateful, and oppressive.

Religion has divided the people of earth into an "us vs. them" mentality. I'm not saying it is the only thing that divides us, but everything else can be negotiated with some kind of diplomacy. Religion, on the other hand, is rigid, intractable, intolerant, and refuses to listen to any other viewpoint. Two sides cannot usually reach an amicable agreement since neither side is willing to back down, to give in. Moreover, religious beliefs and customs cannot be bartered with. Thus if two very different religions reach and impasse, violence is almost inevitable.

For instance, the primary reason why ISIS has attacked the West - according to its own manifesto - is because we're not Muslim. Period. So unless 350,000,000 people convert to fundamentalist Islam, women quit their jobs and don the burqa, and all churches are turned into mosques - and if we stop eating bacon - ISIS will always attack the West. Until they are destroyed.

Even in the USA, fundamentalist Christianity and Evangelist Christianity have a nasty habit of trying to impose its religious beliefs onto the rest of society - completely disregarding the US Constitution and our freedom of choice. Religion itself is a fascistic organization that is ruled from the top down and by decree from the clergy. There are no votes, the cogregation doesn't get a voice, and members are expected to obey without question - blindly.

As such, when religion mingles with politics, you end up with a fascistic, autocratic system of government where blind obedience is not just enforced via law, but extremely harsh punishments often occur - punishments that are often more than just cruel and unusual. Stoning someone to death is wholly criminal and inhumane. In Islam, you have honor killings, in India you have burned brides and the caste system, etc. etc.

I've said this before - and it's important enough to repeat: There has never been a free, democratic, egalitarian, and peaceful nation that had a religious government ... never in the history of humanity. All of them, including the 800 years or so in Europe called the Middle Ages, have been just the opposite - oppressive, intolerant, misogynistic, autocratic, fascistic, and quite often warlike.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,541 posts, read 8,113,653 times
Reputation: 14827
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
People are sometimes negatively influenced by love, too - due to their own mental health imbalances, frustrations, or interpretations. Some people kill out of jealousy or what they perceive as ‘love’. Does that make love ‘bad’? Should love be seen as ‘negative’ as a result because it has the power to influence people negatively as well as positively? Of course not.

Again, it’s people’s unhealthy minds which go haywire. We can’t hold ‘religion’ accountable for the negative (or ‘criminal’) actions of some theists anymore than we can see alcohol as inherently negative because it causes alcoholism in some people.

What’s seen as negative (or rather, what should be seen as negative) is people’s specific actions (often based on religion) - not religion itself.
I agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.

Yes, many things influence people positively and negatively. Love, alcohol, religion, education, money, protein rich foods, free speech, ....

We can also probably agree that some things tend to have more of a positive influence than a negative influence. Religion may, or may not, be a net positive or a net negative.

We spend a great deal of time and effort as humans trying to enhance or minimize influences on people. We outlaw many drugs, restrict others, promote marriage, and so forth. To say that we do not try to shift human behavior in these ways is simply wrong.

Are we, as individuals, ultimately responsible for our behavior? Yes,of course we are. But we do not operate in a void. I work because I need money. If I did not, I would spend my day doing something else. So the choice to work is mine, but it is heavily influence by my desire to eat regularly.

Same thing with religion. You cannot simply wave your hands and try to negate any influence religion has. That would been embarrassingly naive.

Last edited by fishbrains; 03-22-2019 at 03:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:23 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,436 posts, read 281,398 times
Reputation: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
I agree with your premise, but disagree with your conclusions.

Yes, many things influence people positively and negatively. Love, alcohol, religion, education, money, protein rich foods, free speech, ....

We can also probably agree that some things tend to have more of a positive influence than a negative influence. Religion may, or may not, be a net positive or a net negative.

We spend a great deal of time and effort as humans trying to enhance or minimize influences on people. We outlaw many drugs, restrict others, promote marriage, and so forth. To say that we do not try to shift human behavior in these ways is simply wrong.

Are we, as individuals, ultimately responsible for our behavior? Yes,of course we are. But we do not operate in a void. I work because I need money. If I did not, I would spend my day doing something else. So the choice to work is mine, but it is heavily influence by my desire to eat regularly.

Same thing with religion. You cannot simply wave your hands and try to negate any influence religion has. That would been arrasingly naive.
I was with you until the end. I’m not negating the influence religion has (positively or negatively).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:29 PM
 
8,031 posts, read 6,943,057 times
Reputation: 1412
See the world is also ruled by unseen wicked angels and demonic spirits who can live inside people through the unseen spirit which are alien to the living God , and there is wicked angels who have seven heads ten horns and ten crown, and this beast is the liberal spirit for the world who hates the living God , and this beast makes up false religions to fight God and His plan for the earth............. See the spirit of the world inside man makes religion look bad, as this spirits that manipulates man ..... There is also a spirit of Jesus Christ who can rip these wicked spirits out of man and set Him free , so people who ignore having faith in this spirit of Jesus Christ will be ruled over by these wicked spirits by default , and there is nothing that people can do to stop this ..............
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
21,224 posts, read 9,910,451 times
Reputation: 19797
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
In my opinion, morality is a different subject entirely. Just as religion shouldn’t be seen as universally negative, it can’t be seen as universally positive either. It relinquishes the power of our own minds - to interpret, think, and apply (or reject) principles of our own choosing.
For once I agree with you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2019, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,541 posts, read 8,113,653 times
Reputation: 14827
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
I was with you until the end. I’m not negating the influence religion has (positively or negatively).
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy View Post
Religion is a ‘thing’; in and of itself, it does neither harm nor good. People do harm - in the name of ‘fill in the blank’. People who are angry, people who feel justified, people who are mentally ill, people who want to impose their opinions on others, and so forth. It’s all in the application.
Your objections are pedantic and can be disregarded then. You spoke about how religion did not do anything or make claims, people do so instead. Practically speaking though, we do not tend to make such nuanced differentiation in everyday speech. Whether religion is directly responsible for something, or influences people who are then responsible, makes no significant difference.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top