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Old 03-23-2019, 08:24 AM
 
12,257 posts, read 4,686,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
That is nice of you to speak of your parents that way. I do believe it is possible to be religious and be all the good things you speak of.
its about people being people elyn. its not about "religion" taking control of people.

anybody that thinks its religion is short sighted and less valid in the long run. using less valid claims as a base cause more problems in the long run.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:26 AM
 
37,610 posts, read 10,202,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
No, that is completely wrong.

For instance - when you pick up a hammer and pound a nail, does it fundamentally change who you are, does it change your worldview, does it change your actions and behaviors so that you suddenly doubt reality in favor of superstition and faith?

How about any other tool? Does anything profound happen to you by picking up a fork? A pen? A pair of pliars? How about when you drive a car? Use a computer? Etc. etc.

All of those things are tools.

But religion *does* change who you are and everything about you. Religion is not just a tool, it is a way of life, a complete package belief system that has caused people - especially as a collective - to justify some of the most heinous atrocities in history, not to mention individual acts of bigotry, xenophobia, homophobia, prejudice, hate crimes, racism, misogyny, and all the rest of it.

I can't recall too many hammer factories listed as official hate groups - but I can list a dozen religious groups, all of which have the word "family" in their names.

I understand where you're trying to go with your argument, but it's still an example of the "false equivalency" fallacy.

Religion is not a tool - like a hammer, pliars, computer, or duct tape. Not at all. While yes, religion *is* frequently used as a tool, that use can only come from the fact that religion is a state of being, a worldview, a lifestyle - even a cultural trait.

Military leaders right up until today have used religion to fire up the common foot soldier to do his leader's bidding. Back when soldiers had more freedom to choose whether or not to fight, kings, dukes, emperors, and hundreds of petty noble lords looking to expand their fiefdom have often told their soldiers, "The enemy has forsaken God and deserve to die," or something similar.

After all, soldiers of the day are not going to fight and die just to put more gold in the pockets of the aristocracy or so that he can win all the glory for taking over a neighboring fiefdom. But what *would* get the common soldier excited and motivated to fight is to defend their god and their religion.

Today, with the advant of professional armies that are paid to fight, armies that have no choice but to kill the enemy, leaders *still* use religion to excite the soldiers to barely contained levels of bloodlust. For instance, in WWII there was a famous propaganda poster showing Hitler's hand plunging a dagger into a Bible, an rather unsubtle way of saying Hitler was out to eradicate Christianity. Never mind there was no truth to that - Hitler even abolished the German Free Thinkers' League, the only atheist group in Nazi Germany - and replaced it with a Christian outreach center. Never mind the loose alliance between the Nazis and the Catholic Church.

Right now, it's the same nonsense. Until it was exposed during Operation Desert Freedom, soldiers of the US Army and Marines were almost stampeded with Christian pastors and ministers of every description in order to convert as many as they could to the faith - and those who refused to convert were often ostracized by fellow soldiers, passed up for promotion, and arbitrarily punished.

Because the religious right tried to turn the world's most lethal military machine into an Army of God to hurl at the Islamic world - a battle between civilizations in no uncertain terms.

Yet, though religion is used *like* a tool, that doesn't mean it *is* a tool. Because it's not.

Religion is akin to a loaded gun - dangerous, deadly, and uncaring who it shoots. But it's worse than that, though not by much, given that America's gun culture is as close to a religion as one can get without actually *being* a religion. Put those two things together - which they often are on the right side of the political aisle - and religion becomes much more than just a tool.

As I said, it becomes a way of life so dear to the believers that they can no longer separate themselves from the religion. These believers have been subsumed by their beliefs so completely that insulting the belief is identical to insulting the believer - which is why you hear so much crying and moaning about persecution. Moreover, they can no longer tell the difference between dogma and deity, thus they worship their holy book at least as much as they worship their god.

At the end of the day, it means one has a vast swathe of the American population who are nothing less than armed zealots ready to do battle in order to impose their religion onto the rest of society - never mind at all about the Constitution or other people's freedoms. This is why you hear people repeating the very wrong and misguided argument, "We only have freedom OF religion - we don't have freedom FROM religion."

They say that dumb argument as if having freedom from religion doesn't protect them, too. They would understand it if, say, the Mormons began making public policy that went against fundamentalist Christianity. Those radicals are *not* in the majority so they stand as much risk of being forced to obey dogma they don't agree with as much as atheists are.

But - I digress. But only a little.
You have just made CC's day

And mine as
"what *would* get the common soldier excited and motivated to fight is to defend their god and their religion"
gives me a pretext for posting a film clip of the mist Iconic cavalry (why do the Americans always call them 'Calvary?' ) in history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjdvf01pJXg
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:29 AM
 
12,257 posts, read 4,686,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That's true, but the actual point - the Other religions see the others as False religions. They are bad because they teach false beliefs and thus prevent whatever 'slavation' is offered.

The atheist view is that domination of social thought with doctrine rather than reasoned social behaviour is Bad.
no, the actual point is assigning proper weights to claims.

what is more valid.

religion caused it

or

bad people caused it.

thats the base that you can't fess up to. actually, for you, its worse. You make a "concussion" choice to choose the former to continue your little war. your paid to post and as such, just a merc. You don't care. your statement of belief will save the word, if you just can make it happen.

anti-religious/god is a danger to liberty and freedom everywhere. its as dangerous as "my god only saves us".

thats a fact.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:31 AM
 
12,257 posts, read 4,686,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You have just made CC's day

And mine as
"what *would* get the common soldier excited and motivated to fight is to defend their god and their religion"
gives me a pretext for posting a film clip of the mist Iconic cavalry (why do the Americans always call them 'Calvary?' ) in history.
in stead of spouting propaganda through a bull horn. if its not a hammer, what is it?

religion is just a tool. thats just a fact.

now lets properly weight it. not a hammer? then what?
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:35 AM
 
37,610 posts, read 10,202,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I don't agree with the last paragraph. I have not been outlawed (not yet anyway), shunned, minimized or personally attacked here or anywhere for my views. Well, I take that back. Once, I was called a bot on twitter. City-data is the one place where I actually share me feelings explicitly and I have not experienced personal attacks. Yes, my positions have been challenged but attacked? No.

I do agree that focusing on religion is not identifying the whole problem. When I worked on freeing myself from my upbringing, my religious belief was the first mountain to tackle because of the fear of "turning my back" on god. That is how big religion can play a role in a person's life. Once I accepted there probably is no god, I looked back at that huge mountain and accepted that it shouldn't have been placed in front of me at all. The mountains I tackled were mountains that should not have been placed in front of me by adults who were supposed to love and care for me. It wasn't until later that I realized it was the culture that was the problem.
Very good. I may believe that it's really about getting everybody under the same authority, but the believers probably don't see it like that. In the Austin Atheists -Ray Comfort discussion, Ray said "I don't want you to go to hell".

That may be a tactical ploy, but it might very well be sincere. Hellthreat is a very powerful tool of coercion and I can imagine that those who fear it like nothing else and believe that Christian faith has freed them from it really want to free others from it, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
A culture of freedom that allow parents to govern their households as they see fit, as long as it is within the law of the land?
That's always the problem. Parents are like licensed caretakers for the government. The law sets a line which, if crossed, means that your license is revoked and your kids get taken away. Under law, religion is not an excuse.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:40 AM
 
12,257 posts, read 4,686,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Very good. I may believe that it's really about getting everybody under the same authority, but the believers probably don't see it like that. In the Austin Atheists -Ray Comfort discussion, Ray said "I don't want you to go to hell".

That may be a tactical ploy, but it might very well be sincere. Hellthreat is a very powerful tool of coercion and I can imagine that those who fear it like nothing else and believe that Christian faith has freed them from it really want to free others from it, too.
yeah, I only been saying it since day and you don't like how I apply it to Fundy theist and anti-religious/god

lmao ... apply the exact same rigor to your belief statement about religious/god and yours fails.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:42 AM
 
12,257 posts, read 4,686,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Very good. I may believe that it's really about getting everybody under the same authority, but the believers probably don't see it like that. In the Austin Atheists -Ray Comfort discussion, Ray said "I don't want you to go to hell".

That may be a tactical ploy, but it might very well be sincere. Hellthreat is a very powerful tool of coercion and I can imagine that those who fear it like nothing else and believe that Christian faith has freed them from it really want to free others from it, too.



That's always the problem. Parents are like licensed caretakers for the government. The law sets a line which, if crossed, means that your license is revoked and your kids get taken away. Under law, religion is not an excuse.
yup, the problem arises when anti-religous/god tries to push a less valid claim on others to save us.

the rest of us left thinking "what the heck do we do now?"
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Maryland
1,439 posts, read 445,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradpaisley94 View Post
My post is directed towards the developed world. I know that things are very different in poor and/or undeveloped countries. Today it feels like everybody is against religion. Especially Christianity. Las I’ve been living in countries like Sweden, Norway, Canada and Australia it really feels like most people see religion as backward, oppressive, evil, stupid and so forth. Anybody religious is either stupid or weird. Many bad things are blamed on religion. Most wars, deaths, scandals. This is for me a mystery. Sure, the crusades were bad. But, so were many other wars during those times, as well as before and after. And, the crusades were not religious, they were solidly politics disguised as religion. I don’t see many people blaming atheism for millions of murders in Soviet or China. Sure, the paedophile scandal has been really tragic across the catholic church. But, research shows that paedophiles are even more frequent in for example schools and in sports clubs than in churches. But, I don’t see anybody blaming those institutions.

Maybe people are angry at the “blind worship”. But, the western man still worships a lot, even if it is not God. Money, materialistic things, celebrities, fame and themselves. Depression, anxiety and stress is among the things created by this knew worship.
Maybe you compare with more religious societies or countries and think that “we have developed far better than them” or that our standard of living is higher. But, is that not mostly because of our exploitation today and throughout history of the earths resources and other peoples? Is that a sustainable way of life? No, it is not.

Religion has not given anything to society? Think again, many of history’s greatest minds within philosophy, politics, science and so forth were devout religions people. Christianity is the ruling power? Think again, 80% or more of religiously oppressed globally are Christians.
So, I’m not saying that you have to believe or be religious, but why the hostility. Why is Christianity seen as backward?
Don’t you see anything good in what has been accomplished in our societies thanks to Christianity? What’s so bad with “love thy neighbour”?
I had quite a religious upbringing but am now an atheist, after coming to the realization that I believed in nothing supernatural. There’s nothing at all wrong with loving thy neighbor. It is not unique to Christians or even to human beings as far as we can tell.

My objection, but I don’t waste much breath arguing about it these days because it’s a matter of belief, is that it is simply unnecessary and encourages sloppy thinking, through belief in forces outside the realm of the laws of nature. At its worst, it is a rationalization for pretty much any behavior one can imagine, though ridding the world of religion would not necessarily rid the world of those behaviors. People are stupid and would justify their behavior on class, culture, race, something else.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:53 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,737 posts, read 4,608,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
so I can weight it properly, if not a hammer, then what would you compare it to?
A club. A lobbying group. A union. A political party. A gang.

Just a "tool" with "tools in it" and seeking to make more "tools."
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Old 03-23-2019, 09:06 AM
 
12,257 posts, read 4,686,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
A club. A lobbying group. A union. A political party. A gang.

Just a "tool" with "tools in it" and seeking to make more "tools."
all organized groups of people can be compared to a "gang" by the opposing "group". i point to how some theist talk about some atheist as examples to support that. and the reverse is true too.

I like comparing religion as a tool to cars, fire, nuc's, and alcohol/sugar. But what would be a btter weighted statement? for discussion purposes?
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