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Old 03-25-2019, 10:54 AM
Status: "Gone" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,825 posts, read 3,274,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Really? Your hatred of God and prayer and refusal to consider divine healing is somehow PROOF that prayer doesn't work. Well, good for you. You can live your entire life this way for now.
Uh ... no one was talking about god. They were talking about prayer.

You're the one who jumped an entire arsenal of guns and went straight for the tired old "hatred of God" argument.

The fact is, prayer doesn't work - and that has been confirmed, reconfirmed, and re-reconfirmed - and probably re-re-reconfirmed. This is especially true for intercessory prayer because those being prayed for actually had even worse statistics than those who were not receiving prayers. And, if the sick person knew they were being prayed for, they were even worse off than that.

To make matters worse, an unexplained healing does not automatically suggest that some god did it. Considering humanity's track record for incorrectly giving god the credit for things that were later explained as something completely natural, ascribing the cause as divine intervention probably isn't a good idea - especially since it puts people off from finding the real cause.

And if that weren't enough, even if a higher power was proved to be the cause, there is absolutely nothing to show that it was any specific god who caused it. Instead of there being an objective answer, every believer will try to claim their god did it.

It's not as if we're saying it can't be miraculous - but we're not going to just believe it, either.

I cannot fathom how you managed to equate refusing to take something on mere faith to simply hating god. That doesn't make any sense at all.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:54 AM
 
10,732 posts, read 10,964,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
God sometimes does not help people who have not confessed Jesus Christ and have no exercised faith to receive healing , as God prefers to heal the soul first ....... Jesus said ``these only come out with prayer and fasting`` for the un-confessed.............. The their are many who ignore the witness of healing in churches where faith is used for Jesus and then deny this power of Christ

Christians always have an excuse. Incredible! What about the millions of parents who HAVE confessed Jesus a thousand times in church regularly, led exemplary lives, confessed their sins when they did sin, acknowledged Jesus every Sunday--and then their child falls ill with cancer and they pray without ceasing and millions of children die anyway. Are you actually trying to tell us, hljc, that of all these millions of families, not a single one exercised proper faith?????????? Are you actually that gullible???
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:06 AM
 
Location: West Coast U.S.A.
468 posts, read 183,513 times
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I'm reminded of governor Rick Perry's Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas. It took 168 days for the rain to come.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:07 AM
Status: "Gone" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,825 posts, read 3,274,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
My opinion is that there are certain KINDS of healing which are possible though prayer. The Bible doesn't go beyond these types. It is people who try to apply it to everything under the sun.
And the only "kinds" of healing available are the invisible kind - the kind that cannot be verified by anyone other than the person afflicted. Often, not even the doctor can verify the problem.

Or it's some kind of "spiritual healing" or other such invisible cures.

Sure, prayer can work to calm the mind or to prepare for something difficult - in the same way that medication can. But it does not work in a physical sense. Which says to me that it's all in the mind.

The idea of praying, as Trout said, for the strength to deal with an illness instead of cure goes along the same lines. In other words, you end up doing all the work yourself and the prayer becomes irrelevant. It's like sending letters to the dead letter office because you never really get a response.

Please give me the strength to blah blah blah - and then you do blah blah blah - and god ends up getting all the credit. It's just the same scenario is praying for a headache to go away and taking an aspirin. Of course, it was the prayer, not the aspirin, that cured you.

To the best of my knowledge, god didn't do anything at all. It's like those conversation stories - I gave my life to Jesus and all the sudden I didn't do drugs, commit crimes, and have sex with everything that moved. No, you stopped doing those things because you decided to ... stop doing those things. The whole reason why you gave your life to Jesus was because you were ready to make a change - and you changed. And you would've made the change with or without Jesus.

It's like I've said countless times - religion can be a useful tool to individuals. But as an organized entity, it's been an unmitigated disaster for the human condition - and still is.

(Plus I don't believe god is running around randomly picking people to heal while others are simply left to suffer or die. Whether or not you survive an illness or accident should not rest upon whether you have enough "prayer warriors" in your corner. Do people with small families and few friends deserve to live less than someone with a large family and a lot of friends? Do celebrities and politicians deserve to live more than the average person?)
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
10,348 posts, read 8,483,924 times
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If I prays to accept God's will for me and do what's right in front of me, things work out fine. When I pray for specific stuff for me or others, no matter how unselfish, the only answer I get is "do what's in front of you and you'll feel better".
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:44 AM
 
8,205 posts, read 3,671,241 times
Reputation: 1857
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I have my own experience with the powerlessness of prayer. I was deathly sick. I had my church come in and pray for me. Nothing happened. In desperation I went to a doctor who put me on medication and I was healed. God didn't cure me, medicine did.

There is no better way to measure the total bankruptcy of Christianity than to examine the track record of prayer when Christians pray for a desired outcome, follow all the rules and conditions that Jesus lays down, and then have to stand by and watch helplessly as nothing happens. Their loved one dies, they lose their job, they lose their residency and go homeless, they're rendered penniless. They prayed through all of it and prayer got them nowhere. And the best their church can offer them is, "Must be the will of God" or "You must have unconfessed sin in your life" or "God's ways are mysterious" when all they had to say is the unvarnished truth, "Nothing fails like prayer, I'm sorry."

Most Christians don't know that there is an ironclad promise made by the Bible that specifically singles out illness--God will heal sickness specifically--that is apart from the ones Jesus made in the four gospels that, generally speaking, God will grant any request if it is made in Jesus' name. Here it is:

Did you get that?

*If you're sick, even dying--cancer, Hodgkins, diabetes, heart disease, you name it--call for the church elders.
*Let the church elders pray over you
*Anoint the person with oil in the name of Jesus
*Jesus will heal the sick person

Simple as that.
It's not that simple. Your problem is that you are trying to rationalize Christianity from a strictly non-spiritual human perspective. Humans want things simple. We like things to be black and white, one size fits all. Cause and always getting the same effect. But that's not the way life works. It is both incredible amazing yet frustrating that every single one of us has a unique identity and life path. No one will have the exact same life experience as you. Therefore, God operates on a individual basis. His Will may be for a person not to be healed. Maybe if that person was healed, they would have experienced an even greater horror or pain in life. We are never promised a pain free life in this existence. John 16:33 says we will have trouble. Life is hard. Life is a struggle for everyone. Our promise and hope lies in the next life where all things will be made equal. Besides if God is required to heal every time based on your verse then people would be living forever. It's not God's Will for us to live forever in a sin cursed physical body.
The physical flesh form is cursed which is why it can cause so many problems and our bodies tend to crave anything that is bad for it.


Furthermore, you can't say prayer fails every time because it doesn't success all the time. I've been a personal witness to seeing a Christian brother healed overnight of stage 4 thyroid cancer. Completely gone on his next scan, and been healthy and going strong for 20 years. That same friend prayed for me over my nearly crippling back pain and my pain went away and never really gave me problems again.

Here are many other examples where prayer DOES work:

https://www.awmi.net/series/healing/



Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post


Except that Jesus won't. The best promises you can find in the Bible that God will rescue your loved ones from evil fail miserably and there is no place Christian conmen can hide when it comes to this fact. Study after study bear out the fact that prayer has absolutely no force at all in healing someone who's sick or dying. Christians try to wiggle around this by claiming that James isn't promising physical healing but rather, spiritual healing. Really? Look at the next line, "The Lord shall raise him up."

Surely Christians can't wiggle out of that one! Don't we expect that James is using the phrase "raise up" the way Matthew uses it in 8:14-15 when Jesus raised up Peter's mother?
This is not rocket science, folks. If there is any single proof prayer is Christianity's Achilles' heel then it has to be this:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-prescription/

and this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

This is a foolish study. You can't measure something spiritual through physical means. Again, unless we were all clones, there is simply too much variation to draw a trustyworthy conclusion. Science can't even tell us for sure if eggs are bad for you. I noticed they flip flopped on that issue again along with taking a daily aspirin. So why trust this study?
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Germany
3,939 posts, read 721,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
This is a foolish study. You can't measure something spiritual through physical means.
Of course you can, unless the spiritual does not interact with us. In which case it is behaving in exactly the same way as if it was not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Again, unless we were all clones, there is simply too much variation to draw a trustyworthy conclusion. Science can't even tell us for sure if eggs are bad for you. I noticed they flip flopped on that issue again along with taking a daily aspirin. So why trust this study?
Because it gives us more data than anecdotes.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
21,008 posts, read 9,824,158 times
Reputation: 19663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
It's not that simple. Your problem is that you are trying to rationalize Christianity from a strictly non-spiritual human perspective. Humans want things simple. We like things to be black and white, one size fits all. Cause and always getting the same effect. But that's not the way life works. It is both incredible amazing yet frustrating that every single one of us has a unique identity and life path. No one will have the exact same life experience as you. Therefore, God operates on a individual basis. His Will may be for a person not to be healed. Maybe if that person was healed, they would have experienced an even greater horror or pain in life. We are never promised a pain free life in this existence. John 16:33 says we will have trouble. Life is hard. Life is a struggle for everyone. Our promise and hope lies in the next life where all things will be made equal. Besides if God is required to heal every time based on your verse then people would be living forever. It's not God's Will for us to live forever in a sin cursed physical body.
The physical flesh form is cursed which is why it can cause so many problems and our bodies tend to crave anything that is bad for it.


Furthermore, you can't say prayer fails every time because it doesn't success all the time. I've been a personal witness to seeing a Christian brother healed overnight of stage 4 thyroid cancer. Completely gone on his next scan, and been healthy and going strong for 20 years. That same friend prayed for me over my nearly crippling back pain and my pain went away and never really gave me problems again.

...

Science can't even tell us for sure if eggs are bad for you. I noticed they flip flopped on that issue again along with taking a daily aspirin. So why trust this study?
1. While people do tend to want things to be simple, more than that, people want things they can verify. I don't buy a car sight-unseen. I don't buy a house sight-unseen. I look at steaks and other meats in the grocery store before I buy them. But when it comes to religion, you want us to buy it sight-unseen. Okay. Today, I want you to change religions and embrace Hinduism.

2. No, we really don't want one size fits all. Well, actually, some of us do. You want to demand that we all wear christianity. You argue for it here. You send missionaries to places they aren't wanted. You mount crusades. You're the ones who want one size fits all.

3. Cause always gets the same effect? Yes. That's science. I used to teach that to 12 year olds. But it somehow goes right over your head.

4. Now you bring in the death card. I'll bite. I don't have any friends...in fact, I don't have any enemies...whom I want to die a painful death full of suffering. And yet, god delights in such deaths. I don't mind that I'm going to die at some point. I do mind if an "ever-loving god" puts me through an agonizing death when he could just let me die peacefully in my sleep. That's what I would do if I were "ever-loving".

5. Your stories of miraculous healing...prove it. Otherwise, they're just stories.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:54 PM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
2,176 posts, read 785,226 times
Reputation: 11922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry-Koala View Post
I'm reminded of governor Rick Perry's Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas. It took 168 days for the rain to come.
Step 1: Pray

Step 2a [if that for which you prayed happens]: "It's a miracle!"

Step 2b [if that for which you prayed doesn't happen]: "Well, God works in mysterious ways. Who are we to question? It doesn't mean anything!"

Your average eight-year-old could see through the nonsense therein, but it eludes legions of believers.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:55 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-Make liberals cry again." (set 14 hours ago)
 
Location: Spaceship Earth
15,947 posts, read 8,637,678 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. While people do tend to want things to be simple, more than that, people want things they can verify. I don't buy a car sight-unseen. I don't buy a house sight-unseen. I look at steaks and other meats in the grocery store before I buy them. But when it comes to religion, you want us to buy it sight-unseen. Okay. Today, I want you to change religions and embrace Hinduism.

2. No, we really don't want one size fits all. Well, actually, some of us do. You want to demand that we all wear christianity. You argue for it here. You send missionaries to places they aren't wanted. You mount crusades. You're the ones who want one size fits all.

3. Cause always gets the same effect? Yes. That's science. I used to teach that to 12 year olds. But it somehow goes right over your head.

4. Now you bring in the death card. I'll bite. I don't have any friends...in fact, I don't have any enemies...whom I want to die a painful death full of suffering. And yet, god delights in such deaths. I don't mind that I'm going to die at some point. I do mind if an "ever-loving god" puts me through an agonizing death when he could just let me die peacefully in my sleep. That's what I would do if I were "ever-loving".

5. Your stories of miraculous healing...prove it. Otherwise, they're just stories.
Id like to speak to #2. What Id like you to do is look around at our world/universe and seriously consider if there is anything or any being/mind/god behind it. If you think there might be, consider what you would say to him/her/it upon your physical death, if presented with that opportunity.
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