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Old 03-25-2019, 04:10 PM
 
12,228 posts, read 4,649,210 times
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since I am only an atheist and make no choices based on god and how I feel about religion I only see people failing to understand that there isn't magic. How people repeatedly fail past the age of 25 is a data point to me.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
21,008 posts, read 9,824,158 times
Reputation: 19663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Well, if he is all-powerful, youíd better hope youíve been good enough. If heís ever-loving, perhaps it wonít matter.
Well, well. Jimmy's faith isn't as strong as we thought. Two too many "ifs" in his response.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:24 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-Make liberals cry again." (set 14 hours ago)
 
Location: Spaceship Earth
15,947 posts, read 8,637,678 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Well, well. Jimmy's faith isn't as strong as we thought. Two too many "ifs" in his response.
Iím glad to know you at least see the possibility of a mover/mind/god.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:29 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-Make liberals cry again." (set 14 hours ago)
 
Location: Spaceship Earth
15,947 posts, read 8,637,678 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
If you're wrong and the Muslims are right, you are in trouble.
You completely missed my point. Iím not asking you to buy into any particular religion, but rather to consider whether or not there might be something behind our existence and if so, what are the ramafications?
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:11 PM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
2,176 posts, read 785,226 times
Reputation: 11922
I don't know whether to laugh or weep... but, hey, prayer in action!

Prayer closet left standing after tornado demolishes rest of home. 'My God is awesome!'

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/pray...210435616.html

So... a portion of a wall (apparently, part of a 'prayer closet') was not entirely obliterated. It's utterly useless, and will be leveled along with the rest of the structure by a demolition team, if the next moderate breeze doesn't finish the job. But... 'God is awesome!' for allowing your home to be completely destroyed... because he apparently decided to leave a few 2x4s and a piece of sheetrock temporarily upright?

This is roughly the equivalent of claiming that 'God is awesome!' because instead of the robbers taking your life savings, they overlooked one $50 bill.

PS - I didn't even know that a 'prayer room' was a thing. But then, I don't live in Fundistan-- uh, I mean, Alabama.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:19 PM
 
37,305 posts, read 10,076,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You completely missed my point. I’m not asking you to buy into any particular religion, but rather to consider whether or not there might be something behind our existence and if so, what are the ramafications?
No, you completely missed mine. Given that a possible creator might exist (though there is no evidence for it) why, when then there are several other religions, can you assume that you are safe from the hells of the others so as to thretan us with yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
I’m glad to know you at least see the possibility of a mover/mind/god.
As agnostic -based atheists we all see the 'possibility'. It's the theists who don't see it as just an unproven possibility, but as a Faith -based fact. That's where the problem lies.

Oh - and the fact that they don't understand atheists at all.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:00 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-Make liberals cry again." (set 14 hours ago)
 
Location: Spaceship Earth
15,947 posts, read 8,637,678 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
No, you completely missed mine. Given that a possible creator might exist (though there is no evidence for it) why, when then there are several other religions, can you assume that you are safe from the hells of the others so as to thretan us with yours?



As agnostic -based atheists we all see the 'possibility'. It's the theists who don't see it as just an unproven possibility, but as a Faith -based fact. That's where the problem lies.

Oh - and the fact that they don't understand atheists at all.
Oh, I got your point. You were changing the subject. I was speaking generally and you turned the conversation to my particular religion. Iím not asking you to consider Christianity, but just...a source, and if so, what does that mean to us in this life. Iím glad you are open to that.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:13 PM
 
272 posts, read 48,940 times
Reputation: 131
Whoo, boy. Hard to know where to begin, but I'll take it from the top...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
In other words, there is absolutely no way to prove that prayer works with this type of mentality.
It's not a "mentality." It's a description of the best methods we have for determining what actually works and what doesn't, at least in the realm of interventions intended to treat or improve human diseases (which is what we're talking about, with intercessory prayer and the examples given).

And there *IS* a way to show that prayer works (or does not), by testing it in randomized, controlled trials... just like we would with any other intervention, before we should be accepting it as a worthwhile approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
For most people, if they pray for someone and that person gets better, they believe prayer works. Not with the atheist.
This has nothing to do with atheism. It has to do with how knowledge advances, in ways that are more reliable than superstition or anecdotes or personal feelings. Reliable as in "can be relied upon, in ways that have reasonable expectation of succeeding."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
The atheist operates in a bubble world where it is technically impossible to prove that anything is real.
This is totally false. And again, this has nothing to do with atheism. You live in the same "bubble world" as all of us, which is chock full of things we know to be real and true, based on knowledge that is reproducible and reliable and verifiable. Where do you think the knowledge came from to run the computer you are sitting at, or the car you drive, or the heat in your home, or the medicines your doctor prescribes, or anything else you take for granted in daily life? That knowledge base didn't come from one person's anecdote that can never be reproduced or replicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
I can't present any personal stories because you slap the anecdote label on it.
You can present personal stories. You just can't expect others to accept as real and true, without something more than a personal story to back it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Basically you will only accept anything that is repeatable, observable and under strict controlled environments. The supernatural realm doesn't work that way.
So your argument is that supernatural phenomena get a pass when it comes to evaluating them, BUT we should still accept and rely on them, in the same way that we accept and rely on things that can be tested and validated and verified and experienced by others in the same way? Sorry, but that's not a very reliable way to manage our lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
It is virtually impossible to prove that anything is true beyond a shadow of a doubt. Can you prove that your parents are really human beings and not shape shifters? How? Can you prove that chiropractors are frauds? How?
I don't have reason to think my parents were not human but, if I did, we could have done genetic testing. Not sure why that is a relevant example?

The chiropractor example is closer to being on point. I don't know about proving them to be frauds, but we could find out if the techniques they apply are actually safe and effective, just as we do other interventions. And those studies have been done, as they have for many "alternative medicine" approaches. Some of them are effective, some are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
The best approach is to look at the evidence at hand and draw your own conclusions.
First there has to be evidence, and not evidence that is totally reliant on your personal imagination and interpretation. Real evidence that can be seen and shared and validated. Like the evidence cited in the OP for trials of intercessory prayer.

As for everyone looking at the evidence and drawing our own conclusions, that only works if everyone is equally equipped to evaluate and has access to the evidence. If not, "everyone draw your own conclusions" is a horrible way to advance global knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Your blood letting example only shows the flaws in science. The doctor took an action, and observed a response. He repeated the same action and got the same response. Cause and effect. He could have said it is a fact that blood letting works.
He probably did, but the point of that example was it came into being during a time when we weren't very good at evaluating new techniques and interventions, before adopting them as standard practice. We're getting better at how we go about creating and refining our knowledge. And getting better does not involve reliance on personal anecdotes that can't be verified by anyone else.

Here's a different example than blood letting: Many people have an Uncle Bob who "smoked his whole life and never got sick." That doesn't mean we ignore the overwhelming evidence that a lifetime of smoking greatly increases the risk of cancer, heart disease and lung disease. Uncle Bob is an anecdote that doesn't do anything to inform our understanding of the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Yet facts don't change. Once we got more information about the human body, the "fact" was shown to be wrong. You can't even be 100% on anything but new information in the future could completely change the board on what we believe is true.
That's because science is open to revision based on new knowledge. You say that like it's a fault, but it's a real strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Why does radiation work for some people and not another? I would say nothing fails like science. It's in a constant state of failure. We can't even determine if eggs are good for you.
Radiation works for some people better than others, depending on their biology and the characteristics of their disease. But across a large group of patients with similar characteristics and similar disease, we know it works better than other things we tried. That's why we study interventions across a large group, rather than relying on anecdotes about a single person (see Uncle Bob, above). That is not a failing of science. Nor is our revised understanding of the positive and negative effects of consuming eggs (see above, re: ability of science to revise based on new information).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
You can't control the variables because everyone is different.
"Controlling variables" referred to our approach in studying these issues. By ensuring that comparison groups are matched in terms of age, gender, disease state, etc, etc., we put ourselves in a better position to draw reliable conclusions, rather than the mish-mash we would have if we did not control variables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Not just physical, but on a different life journey. Only God knows what is ahead and if healing is right for us or not. After all, healing is really only delaying the inevitable. The human body will die out in just a few short decades.
No relevance to current discussion.

Last edited by HeelaMonster; 03-25-2019 at 08:24 PM..
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:26 PM
 
5,808 posts, read 1,578,959 times
Reputation: 881
Takes a special kind of hatred to post this crap every single day.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
21,008 posts, read 9,824,158 times
Reputation: 19663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Iím glad to know you at least see the possibility of a mover/mind/god.
And you don't read well, either.
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