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Old 04-15-2019, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,908 posts, read 5,362,546 times
Reputation: 3972

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Here:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/praye...ence_n_4504776
Basically the same thing. prayer's ability to influence your behavior is similar to any reward. Money is one of the greatest influencers of a person's behavior. Offer a disobedient teen $20 not to smoke for an hour and they will refrain.
I think you misrepresent the findings of the study, thrill. It states clearly that they believe it is "social connection."
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Old Yesterday, 06:42 AM
 
12,334 posts, read 4,697,819 times
Reputation: 1299
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Here:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/praye...ence_n_4504776
Basically the same thing. prayer's ability to influence your behavior is similar to any reward. Money is one of the greatest influencers of a person's behavior. Offer a disobedient teen $20 not to smoke for an hour and they will refrain.
but thrill, its not that "prayer" never works. Its more like what and how you pray will actually influence you. giving the teen 20 bucks work in the short term. But bribing people will have the same effect in the long term as the type of prayer you are addressing.

you keep telling people, through a bull horn, "prayer doesn't work.". its just not true. Prayer, in a mindful way, does work. We all pray together, to a rock if you like, to try and be just a tad nicer today, I bet we all are. even, if we fall back.

and if we don't keep doing it, we will revert back to our natural selves.

what do you have in the way for helping us be just a tad nice if not prayer, in a mindfulness way?
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Old Yesterday, 08:01 AM
 
312 posts, read 55,731 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I have no idea why the link isn't working. I'll go back to the other thread and see if I can get it there. It's post 804? (I think) on the decline of Christianity and rise of nones thread (I think) and see if it will work there.

I apologize to all of you.

P.S. I went to page 81 of that other thread and got to the site fine. I'll post it here again to see if maybe I copied incorrectly before.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...prayers-power/
Thank you, that link worked fine. Having seen the intended study, I would just refer back to my earlier post in this thread (#652), where I agreed that personal prayer may have benefits for the individual practictioner, just as meditation or exercise or other coping behaviors have beneficial effects. No surprise there, and no argument. It is INTERCESSORY prayer that rigorous studies have shown to be of little to no effect (as referenced in the OP).

http://www.city-data.com/forum/54897672-post652.html

Last edited by HeelaMonster; Yesterday at 09:08 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 12:49 PM
 
39,005 posts, read 26,242,385 times
Reputation: 5969
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
Thank you, that link worked fine. Having seen the intended study, I would just refer back to my earlier post in this thread (#652), where I agreed that personal prayer may have benefits for the individual practictioner, just as meditation or exercise or other coping behaviors have beneficial effects. No surprise there, and no argument. It is INTERCESSORY prayer that rigorous studies have shown to be of little to no effect (as referenced in the OP).

http://www.city-data.com/forum/54897672-post652.html
The selection of prayer warriors remains the defect. Otherwise, you are just comparing random control groups with each other. What is the probability that any individual has an effective connection to God? What proportion of the population can be expected to have this? How would we establish this? The assumption that prayer effectiveness resides equally in all of us is spurious because the required connection to God is not falsifiable and defies prima facie evidence. In the Christian view, the idea that Jesus was needed because we were not connecting with God's love, just emphasizes the tenuousness and importance of the connection to God. The falsifiability issue is an unsolvable problem for the scientific method in applications to God which is why no serious research is actually ever done about God.
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Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
559 posts, read 205,139 times
Reputation: 1016
Looking forward to the response to this....it seems odd to me. We ALL have a connection to God, IMO. Maybe some people just haven't flipped the switch to ON.
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Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM
 
312 posts, read 55,731 times
Reputation: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The selection of prayer warriors remains the defect. Otherwise, you are just comparing random control groups with each other. What is the probability that any individual has an effective connection to God? What proportion of the population can be expected to have this? How would we establish this? The assumption that prayer effectiveness resides equally in all of us is spurious because the required connection to God is not falsifiable and defies prima facie evidence. In the Christian view, the idea that Jesus was needed because we were not connecting with God's love, just emphasizes the tenuousness and importance of the connection to God. The falsifiability issue is an unsolvable problem for the scientific method in applications to God which is why no serious research is actually ever done about God.
I addressed that before (post #822), so rather than reinvent the wheel, will just copy here. Here is your earlier version of this concern (which I view as valid, but not insurmountable), followed by my response....

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
"None of your suggestions address the fundamental flaw in your vetting process. How do you determine their ability to effectively wield prayer in support of an objective? The answer is you can't. None of the characteristics you can divide them by address the ability you purport to control i.e, "some indicator of devoutness, method, and frequency of prayer" that is a viable substitute for their ability to wield prayer effectively. In one religion, the strength of belief is supposed to be the controlling factor in prayer effectiveness. How do you measure that any more effectively than we can measure the content of consciousness (we can't)?"

Perhaps you can't control for all variables, but then neither can we control for every possible variable in designing studies on "cancer," which is not a single disease, and has a host of complicated factors that will affect what and how we study it. You control what you can, and make your comparison groups as similar as possible, to allow valid conclusions to be drawn.... unless you're going to fall back on "it's just too complicated" and not study it at all. If a given variable (strength of belief, in your example) is difficult to control, that may translate into a larger sample size required for study, so that characteristics across the group become more representative (i.e., average out with larger numbers in each group).

Having acknowledged the difficulty in controlling the inputs, what we CAN measure effectively are OUTCOMES. People getting better (or not) is something we can measure. It's a cop-out to say we can't study these phenomena.

Bottom line, if it works (whatever "it" is), we should be able to observe and confirm that... beyond personal experience. If we can't, there is little reason to believe it works.

Last edited by HeelaMonster; Yesterday at 02:14 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM
 
39,005 posts, read 26,242,385 times
Reputation: 5969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn hunter View Post
Looking forward to the response to this....it seems odd to me. We ALL have a connection to God, IMO. Maybe some people just haven't flipped the switch to ON.
True, we all DO have a connection but an effective one is an issue. That IS the major problem even with those who think they HAVE switched it to ON. The state of the world is prima facie evidence. How effective a connection can you have if you claim to love but fear a wrathful and vengeful God capable of torturing its creations forever?
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Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Florida
19,297 posts, read 19,464,262 times
Reputation: 22501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn hunter View Post
Looking forward to the response to this....it seems odd to me. We ALL have a connection to God, IMO. Maybe some people just haven't flipped the switch to ON.
Many of us had that switch turned to ON (and hopefully) and only found that there must have been a short circuit somewhere...…...ooppps, no power.

But we also found that everything important , not only still worked, but worked better.
Sort of like depending on an extension cord to your neighbors house and realizing your own hook up was better.
The "power' is within you if your religion didn't beat that fact out of you...you sinful, worthless POS in need of redemption
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Old Yesterday, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
559 posts, read 205,139 times
Reputation: 1016
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Many of us had that switch turned to ON (and hopefully) and only found that there must have been a short circuit somewhere......ooppps, no power.

But we also found that everything important , not only still worked, but worked better.
Sort of like depending on an extension cord to your neighbors house and realizing your own hook up was better.
The "power' is within you if your religion didn't beat that fact out of you...you sinful, worthless POS in need of redemption
Yowza! Sounds like a pretty nasty church! Hope all is good with you now!
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Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Florida
19,297 posts, read 19,464,262 times
Reputation: 22501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn hunter View Post
Yowza! Sounds like a pretty nasty church! Hope all is good with you now!
Actually, the small town church I grew with up had some of the nicest people I've ever had to deal with.
The precepts behind the religion most certainly are not.....Heaven/hell etc
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