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Old Today, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Secured. Sealed. Loved. Eternally. I <3 You Jesus!
13,233 posts, read 6,823,349 times
Reputation: 4800

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As followers of Christ, our focus is on our eternal destinies. What we are concerned about is [i]eternity/I]. I can understand eternity future. It simply never ends. It's eternity past that I find impossible to wrap my mind around. I doubt anyone truly can understand it. But God has, in fact, existed since eternity past. In other words, He has always existed. There is no point in time, no matter how far back, that He did not exist. That's a problematic statement, in some ways ("no point in time"), because time is actually part of the created universe. Still, if I apply a sort of proleptic reckoning of time that antecedes the creation of the universe, we find no point in the pre-history of the universe that God did not exist.

The enigmatic notion of eternity past is inevitable regardless of whether you subscribe to a theistic or an atheistic cosmogeny. The mystery that is our existence cannot be answered by assuming that nothing gave rise to something. Aristotle thought that the universe always existed. However, nowadays, we know that this is not the case. The universe had a distinct beginning. Not only did the universe come into existence, we find clear evidence that the universe is fine-tuned to support life on earth.

So we must concede that, at some point, there is something that existed. Nothing cannot give rise to something. There is something that is self-existent. Who can deny this?

In case you were torn between a material universe that is self-existent and God, who is self-existent, we must turn to evidence in our midst. As this lecture propounds, the allegedly self-existent laws of the universe that atheism must explain, in fact, cannot explain the order we see in the universe. In other words, even if the Big Bang could somehow give rise to itself, the natural laws of the universe do not explain the empirical reality of the universe!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCec8SiDuI

 
Old Today, 01:40 PM
 
10,290 posts, read 14,918,139 times
Reputation: 11485
You are concerned with non existent values. There is not future or past. There is only NOW.

What you refer to as "god" always IS.
Try your best to imagine anything that is not NOW. The other two concepts you worry about are just figments of your mind.
Let it go.
 
Old Today, 01:42 PM
 
10,290 posts, read 14,918,139 times
Reputation: 11485
Let me add something. Even if you turn purple from mental effort imagining past and future, all that is still in NOW. Correct? So, instead of trying to dwell in those, maybe concentrate on what really is - NOW? As human mind does not exist in now, it exists in the mental, imaginary past, hoping for no less mental and imaginary future.
 
Old Today, 02:16 PM
 
21,155 posts, read 16,241,858 times
Reputation: 8202
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
As followers of Christ, our focus is on our eternal destinies. What we are concerned about is [i]eternity/I]. I can understand eternity future. It simply never ends. It's eternity past that I find impossible to wrap my mind around. I doubt anyone truly can understand it. But God has, in fact, existed since eternity past. In other words, He has always existed. There is no point in time, no matter how far back, that He did not exist. That's a problematic statement, in some ways ("no point in time"), because time is actually part of the created universe. Still, if I apply a sort of proleptic reckoning of time that antecedes the creation of the universe, we find no point in the pre-history of the universe that God did not exist.

The enigmatic notion of eternity past is inevitable regardless of whether you subscribe to a theistic or an atheistic cosmogeny. The mystery that is our existence cannot be answered by assuming that nothing gave rise to something. Aristotle thought that the universe always existed. However, nowadays, we know that this is not the case. The universe had a distinct beginning. Not only did the universe come into existence, we find clear evidence that the universe is fine-tuned to support life on earth.

So we must concede that, at some point, there is something that existed. Nothing cannot give rise to something. There is something that is self-existent. Who can deny this?

In case you were torn between a material universe that is self-existent and God, who is self-existent, we must turn to evidence in our midst. As this lecture propounds, the allegedly self-existent laws of the universe that atheism must explain, in fact, cannot explain the order we see in the universe. In other words, even if the Big Bang could somehow give rise to itself, the natural laws of the universe do not explain the empirical reality of the universe!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCec8SiDuI
First, I am a Christian. I've only listened to about the first 18 minutes of the video (I guess I'll watch the rest of it), but from 6:23 to 14:54 the speaker attempts to discredit the theory of planetary formation through the process of accretion saying that physics doesn't allow it. However, he ignores the fact that we can see what appears to be planetary formation through accretion taking place in star HL Tauri which is about 457 light years from earth which means that the process is going on right now (if it was occurring 457 years ago, it's still going on now) as opposed to millions of years in the past. Details are in the video below.

Star's Planet-Forming Disc Revealed In Unprecedented Detail | Video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqt7s0J10f8

We can also observe stars being born in interstellar dust clouds which he seems to disagree with.

Then at 16:50 he turns to geology and appears to be attempting to argue against an old earth when he starts talking about Carbon-14 dating for things ''that are supposed to be old''. I stopped watching at that point to post this. I'm assuming the speaker is a typical young-earth creationist which is an embarrassment to Christianity. We know that the universe is some 13.7 billion years old, and the further back we look in time we can see galaxies that are in a more primitive state of formation meaning that they formed closer in time to the beginning of the universe which the best evidence indicates was the result of the so-called 'big bang'.

But yes, whether God or not, 'something' has had to have eternally existed, because absolutely nothing can come into existence from absolutely nothing. Therefore, if not God, then energy in some form (quantum foam?) - virtual particles constantly being created and destroyed, - something. . . has had to have always existed. From a purely naturalistic viewpoint I can see how a random fluctuation in an energy field could result in a 'big bang.' This would also suggest that 'big bangs' are constantly occurring in a multiverse, with our particular universe being fined turned for life in the sense of things such as the cosmological constant and gravity being just right to allow for the formation of stars and planets.

Last edited by Mike555; Today at 02:35 PM..
 
Old Today, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Secured. Sealed. Loved. Eternally. I <3 You Jesus!
13,233 posts, read 6,823,349 times
Reputation: 4800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
First, I am a Christian. I've only listened to about the first 18 minutes of the video (I guess I'll watch the rest of it), but from 6:23 to 14:54 the speaker attempts to discredit the theory of planetary formation through the process of accretion saying that physics doesn't allow it. However, he ignores the fact that we can see what appears to be planetary formation through accretion taking place in star HL Tauri which is about 457 light years from earth which means that the process is going on right now (if it was occurring 457 years ago, it's still going on now) as opposed to millions of years in the past. Details are in the video below.

Star's Planet-Forming Disc Revealed In Unprecedented Detail | Video
The disc is "a lot more developed than would be expected from the age of the system."

Around 3:00.

Uh-huh.

So planetary formation is "faster than previously thought" as the video suggests. Well, then compare that theory to the video I posted. As you will learn, gravity is a weak force, and does not support planetary formation, especially not in rapid fashion. Nor does it support star formation in the first place. Indeed, there is no good reason to believe that stars or planets could have emerged on their own.

https://creation.com/do-dust-rings-grow-into-planets

In fact, "dark matter" is still required for computer models concerning star and planet formation.

Quote:
John Hartnett explains the situation concerning star-forming computer simulations, saying, “No simulation actually starts with just a gas cloud, but rather with either dark matter or a very dense already collapsing gas cloud. If they didn’t program in the necessary initial conditions, the simulations would not result in any stars or planets.
Atheists like to deride Christians for favoring a supposedly simplistic "God did it" hypothesis. (There even write it like this: Goddidit.) Well, what atheist cosmologists posit instead is a "dark matter did it" hypothesis. Somehow there's just the right amount of "dark matter" in the universe to make it suitable for us to exist.

https://creation.com/stars-dont-form-naturally

Last edited by snj90; Today at 04:26 PM..
 
Old Today, 04:02 PM
 
1,607 posts, read 663,370 times
Reputation: 316
The simple answer is one has always been. If there's no end, there was no beginning either. And that being is now. If there's no end, there is no eternal destiny - it's all one continuous journey - it goes from one age-during of revelation to another. It doesn't matter what we are, as in a dog is a dog - it only matters that we are.
 
Old Today, 04:18 PM
 
21,155 posts, read 16,241,858 times
Reputation: 8202
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
The disc is "a lot more developed than would be expected from the age of the system."

Around 3:00.

Uh-huh.

So planetary formation is "faster than previously thought" as the video suggests. Well, then compare that theory to the video I posted. As you will learn, gravity is a weak force, and does not support planetary formation, especially not in rapid fashion. Nor does it support star formation in the first place. Indeed, there is no good reason to believe that stars or planets could have emerged on their own.

https://creation.com/do-dust-rings-grow-into-planets

In fact, "dark matter" is still required for computer models concerning star and planet formation.



Atheists like to deride Christians for favoring a supposedly simplistic "God did it" hypothesis. (There even write it like this: Goddidit.) Well, what atheist cosmologists posit instead is a "dark matter did it" hypothesis. Somehow there's just the right amount of "dark matter" in the universe to make it suitable for us exist.

https://creation.com/stars-dont-form-naturally
Your first mistake is appealing to a creationist website, which by the way may well get this thread shut down.

I am well aware that gravity is a weak force. But it is just right for the formation of stars and planets. Again, we can observe what certainly appears to be planet formation through accretion taking place in star HL Tauri.

I watched a bit more of the video. At 19:00, the speaker appeals to the soft dinosaur tissue that was discovered in order to argue for a young earth. But the person who discovered that soft tissue, Dr. Mary Schweitzer, is herself a Christian and doesn't appreciate young earth creationists hi-jacking her discovery in order to claim that the earth is young.
Meanwhile, Schweitzer’s research has been hijacked by “young earth” creationists, who insist that dinosaur soft tissue couldn’t possibly survive millions of years. They claim her discoveries support their belief, based on their interpretation of Genesis, that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Of course, it’s not unusual for a paleontologist to differ with creationists. But when creationists misrepresent Schweitzer’s data, she takes it personally: she describes herself as “a complete and total Christian.” On a shelf in her office is a plaque bearing an Old Testament verse: “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ker-115306469/
And aside from computer models regarding star formation, we can see young stars being born in dense gas clouds.


Hubble telescope image known as
Pillars of Creation, where stars are
forming in the Eagle Nebula

One doesn't have to be an atheist in order to hold to an old universe/old earth view and to go where the evidence leads regarding star and planet formation.

Last edited by Mike555; Today at 04:37 PM..
 
Old Today, 05:31 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,817 posts, read 10,749,836 times
Reputation: 7205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Your first mistake is appealing to a creationist website, which by the way may well get this thread shut down.

<snip>
Indeed it will.

Creation.com is a junk science site. Allowing that nonsense to be posted here would require us to allow people who actually understand science to post rebuttals and cite actual science sources. That is not what this forum is for. City-Data has a Science and Technology forum.

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