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Old 04-05-2019, 01:35 AM
 
Location: US
27,313 posts, read 14,642,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
This is another area where Paul came unstuck. I actually wonder whether he cared tuppence about the temple any more than the Gentile Christians did - he never seems to have bothered to rush back there for the festivals. But I agree totally that Paul found a way of takng the unpalatable rind of Ritual off Judaism so that he could get gentiles to swallow it.

But Paul had the idea that, once the gentiles has invested faith in Christ as the Risen messiah (not, note as God, never mind a begotten son of God) they had Died to Sin and would now all be plaster saints. He very soon found out that this wasn't the case and (Christians studiously ignore this ) warned then that, if they carried on screwing their aunts, they would forfeit Grace.

Works as well as Faith, folks.
Seems like faith equals no rules...
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,940 posts, read 7,416,253 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Seems like faith equals no rules...
No faith equals applying a principle instead of fallible and nebulous “laws.” Try to actually think rather than react from your jaundiced position.
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:10 PM
 
37,486 posts, read 10,135,389 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Seems like faith equals no rules...
Religions have lots of rules. Faith, Paul initially supposed, would make Rules needless. He soon found that he was wrong, and had to spend quite a few letter -pages irritatedly writing orders and rules for his churches. It didn't stop him for a second to ask whether his hypothesis hadn't just collapsed. Maybe it didn't occur to him, maybe he tweaked it a bit, maybe he didn't care.

As Bruckner said: "Do whatever you like, but just play it".
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Old 04-05-2019, 05:32 PM
 
38,899 posts, read 26,157,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No faith equals applying a principle instead of fallible and nebulous “laws.” Try to actually think rather than react from your jaundiced position.
the mistake they make is not placing themselves in the mindset of those who originally received the "laws." They were fearful primitives who thought God was responsible for every bad or good thing that happened to them. Their rulers made laws and enforced them so they saw obedience as the primary purpose of laws. They gave no consideration to what the laws were supposed to result in - what you call the principle for the existence of the laws. Sadly, the religious mindset of too many have retained that primitive obedience meme instead of trying to grasp why the laws would even exist.
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,940 posts, read 7,416,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Religions have lots of rules. Faith, Paul initially supposed, would make Rules needless. He soon found that he was wrong, and had to spend quite a few letter -pages irritatedly writing orders and rules for his churches. It didn't stop him for a second to ask whether his hypothesis hadn't just collapsed. Maybe it didn't occur to him, maybe he tweaked it a bit, maybe he didn't care.

As Bruckner said: "Do whatever you like, but just play it".
Or maybe Paul was demonstrating how the principle is applied rather than “making rules .”
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Old 04-06-2019, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,940 posts, read 7,416,253 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
No faith equals applying a principle instead of fallible and nebulous “laws.” Try to actually think rather than react from your jaundiced position.
When “law” denies cheeseburgers to the population it is time to take another look at the concept
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:38 AM
 
Location: US
27,313 posts, read 14,642,780 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
When “law” denies cheeseburgers to the population it is time to take another look at the concept
I think that that is just a misunderstanding about that Law...
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Old 04-06-2019, 03:53 PM
 
37,486 posts, read 10,135,389 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Or maybe Paul was demonstrating how the principle is applied rather than “making rules .”
Yes..I think that is what he hoped for. In fact he found out that it didn't work as he'd hoped and had to make a string of rulings on the procedures of his converts. This is what i mean that it kicked the slats out of his thesis that Gentiles have innate righteousness - if they believe in God...make that Jesus..Godfaith isn't enough.

He found that Goddaith or not you can't stop REAL human nature. That's the problem of morality and is why the moral compass is not and cannot be God -derived.
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,940 posts, read 7,416,253 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I think that that is just a misunderstanding about that Law...
Yes, that is part of the point: there is misunderstanding, there is just bad law and there is outright insanity..
How would you know if all you have is "law."
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,940 posts, read 7,416,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes..I think that is what he hoped for. In fact he found out that it didn't work as he'd hoped and had to make a string of rulings on the procedures of his converts. This is what i mean that it kicked the slats out of his thesis that Gentiles have innate righteousness - if they believe in God...make that Jesus..Godfaith isn't enough.

He found that Goddaith or not you can't stop REAL human nature. That's the problem of morality and is why the moral compass is not and cannot be God -derived.
And the point remains: the principle is valid, learning how to live it takes some doing.
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