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Old 04-03-2019, 12:17 AM
 
Location: US
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Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 44

9 So said the Lord God: No alien of uncircumcised heart or of uncircumcised flesh may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.


Gal 5:
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Interesting...G-d says if you are not circumcised of the flesh you may not enter His sanctuary, however, Paul says the opposite, that if you become circumcised then Jesus becomes of no value to you...Whos telling the truth here?...
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Old 04-03-2019, 01:43 AM
 
37,476 posts, read 10,135,389 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 44

9 So said the Lord God: No alien of uncircumcised heart or of uncircumcised flesh may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.


Gal 5:
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Interesting...G-d says if you are not circumcised of the flesh you may not enter His sanctuary, however, Paul says the opposite, that if you become circumcised then Jesus becomes of no value to you...Who’s telling the truth here?...
That depends on whether one buys Paul's argument. It is that humans fell through Adam's (and Eve's) disobedience. Sin-death came into the world. But Abraham was a righteous man, not because he followed the Law (it wasn't given as yet) but because he believed in God. Paul's thesis is that the Law was given because the Jews, (though God's chosen people) were Not righteous in their actions.

But (Paul argues) Gentiles are righteous without the Law - if they believe in God. And they ought to, because of the ID argument (look at the trees, look at the flowers..must be a watchmaker). So Gentiles who believe in God (there is of course only one...Paul's argument is coming apart, already) are righteous without the Law. The Law (and circumcision) is something imposed on Jews that Gentiles can well do without. The Jews have to faithfully obey the Law as well as just being naturally Righteous through believing in a Creator, or their 'circumcision becomes Uncircumcision'.

Paul does a bit of goalpost -shifting here as Faith in God becomes faith in Jesus. The problem was that, though Gentiles may have been Naturally righteous (if they believe the Trees, flowers, argument), they were still not going to be saved at the final resurrection because they were not God's people. Paul thus argued that Jesus by his obedience to death has wiped out Adam's sin -death and everyone could be saved - if they believed in Jesus.

So who was right? Well, broadly there is no real contradiction. Jews can be saved because of the promise, but Gentiles can be saved through Jesus. Circumcision (and the Law) is Imposed on Jews - an extra burden, Paul thinks) and is really not the issue. Righteousness through Faith is what matters.
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Old 04-03-2019, 02:33 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That depends on whether one buys Paul's argument. It is that humans fell through Adam's (and Eve's) disobedience. Sin-death came into the world. But Abraham was a righteous man, not because he followed the Law (it wasn't given as yet) but because he believed in God. Paul's thesis is that the Law was given because the Jews, (though God's chosen people) were Not righteous in their actions.

But (Paul argues) Gentiles are righteous without the Law - if they believe in God. And they ought to, because of the ID argument (look at the trees, look at the flowers..must be a watchmaker). So Gentiles who believe in God (there is of course only one...Paul's argument is coming apart, already) are righteous without the Law. The Law (and circumcision) is something imposed on Jews that Gentiles can well do without. The Jews have to faithfully obey the Law as well as just being naturally Righteous through believing in a Creator, or their 'circumcision becomes Uncircumcision'.

Paul does a bit of goalpost -shifting here as Faith in God becomes faith in Jesus. The problem was that, though Gentiles may have been Naturally righteous (if they believe the Trees, flowers, argument), they were still not going to be saved at the final resurrection because they were not God's people. Paul thus argued that Jesus by his obedience to death has wiped out Adam's sin -death and everyone could be saved - if they believed in Jesus.

So who was right? Well, broadly there is no real contradiction. Jews can be saved because of the promise, but Gentiles can be saved through Jesus. Circumcision (and the Law) is Imposed on Jews - an extra burden, Paul thinks) and is really not the issue. Righteousness through Faith is what matters.
But Ezekiel is talking about uncircumcised Aliens [non-jews]...The requirements to enter G-ds sanctuary are to be circumcised of heart AND flesh...So, if the goy desires to enter G-ds sanctuary, they must meet the requirements...Paul seems to argue against that...Just as Christians seem to now state that once saved always saved, they have, as you said of Paul, moved the goal posts and Id say it is to make Christianity more appealing than having to be circumcised and follow the Torah...In other words, you can do as you wish and still attain heaven...You dont have to be responsible for your actions...
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Old 04-03-2019, 03:11 AM
 
37,476 posts, read 10,135,389 times
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Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
But Ezekiel is talking about uncircumcised Aliens [non-jews]...The requirements to enter G-ds sanctuary are to be circumcised of heart AND flesh...So, if the goy desires to enter G-ds sanctuary, they must meet the requirements...Paul seems to argue against that...Just as Christians seem to now state that once saved always saved, they have, as you said of Paul, moved the goal posts and Id say it is to make Christianity more appealing than having to be circumcised and follow the Torah...In other words, you can do as you wish and still attain heaven...You dont have to be responsible for your actions...
This is another area where Paul came unstuck. I actually wonder whether he cared tuppence about the temple any more than the Gentile Christians did - he never seems to have bothered to rush back there for the festivals. But I agree totally that Paul found a way of takng the unpalatable rind of Ritual off Judaism so that he could get gentiles to swallow it.

But Paul had the idea that, once the gentiles has invested faith in Christ as the Risen messiah (not, note as God, never mind a begotten son of God) they had Died to Sin and would now all be plaster saints. He very soon found out that this wasn't the case and (Christians studiously ignore this ) warned then that, if they carried on screwing their aunts, they would forfeit Grace.

Works as well as Faith, folks.
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Old 04-03-2019, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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If “God’s Sanctuary” had any meaning beyond a parochial religion which has no bearing on a good relationship with God and man you would have a point, or even If it were actually God speaking in Ezekiel as opposed to a proponent of one iteration of that’s religion, but that has nothing to do with following Christ, which is what Paul was speaking about. Apples and oranges. A lot of people seem to be confused on that.
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Old 04-03-2019, 02:00 PM
 
Location: US
27,304 posts, read 14,637,388 times
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
If “God’s Sanctuary” had any meaning beyond a parochial religion which has no bearing on a good relationship with God and man you would have a point, or even If it were actually God speaking in Ezekiel as opposed to a proponent of one iteration of that’s religion, but that has nothing to do with following Christ, which is what Paul was speaking about. Apples and oranges. A lot of people seem to be confused on that.
You seem very confused...So, you say that it wasn’t G-d speaking through His prophet?...
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Old 04-03-2019, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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You seem confused. You think a book with as many conflicts and vicious perceptions as recorded in Tanach accurately reflects the truth of God?
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Old 04-03-2019, 04:52 PM
 
5,820 posts, read 1,591,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 44

9 So said the Lord God: No alien of uncircumcised heart or of uncircumcised flesh may enter My Sanctuary, of any alien who is in the midst of the Children of Israel.


Gal 5:
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Interesting...G-d says if you are not circumcised of the flesh you may not enter His sanctuary, however, Paul says the opposite, that if you become circumcised then Jesus becomes of no value to you...Whos telling the truth here?...
Read the entire book. It's mind-blowing.
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:21 PM
 
38,892 posts, read 26,149,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
You seem confused. You think a book with as many conflicts and vicious perceptions as recorded in Tanach accurately reflects the truth of God?
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Old 04-04-2019, 02:32 AM
 
Location: US
27,304 posts, read 14,637,388 times
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Read the entire book. It's mind-blowing.
Why not follow your own advice...
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