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Old 04-06-2019, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Perhaps I am the errant one for thinking that anyone would be interested in challenging their preconceived ideas.
""
You're mainly errant when you use the phrase "preconceived ideas" when "carefully considered" is more accurate
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Old 04-06-2019, 02:35 PM
 
37,497 posts, read 10,145,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Because my question is directed for the main Religion forum, which is primarily atheist. They are the ones who seem to be turned off by religion, based partly on what I believe is their severe misunderstanding of the Bible.
That's what I thought. Which is why I said that - for atheists, your argument is a non -starter, and it was perfectly valid to say 'first prove a god, then prove it's Biblegod, then you can talk'.

It is a post better directed to Christian forum.
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Old 04-06-2019, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Ohio
19,097 posts, read 13,884,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
ALL of those prophets had one continuous message towards their nations and towards their people - Monotheism - Worship only ONE God.
That's not monotheism.

Islam is monotheistic, because there was one god, and only one god and never any others.

Judaism and christianity are not monotheistic, they're actually monolatry, which is the worship of one god to the exclusion of other gods.

The Hebrews were polytheistic just like everyone else. And, just like everyone else, over time they shifted to henotheism. Henotheism, at least in the Middle East, was the recognition of a pantheon of gods, but elevating one god to be special.

For the Hebrews, they chose Yahweh, one of the sons of another god.

Like other cultures in the area, the Hebrews ultimately shifted to monolatry. The Amorites, the people everyone calls "Babylonians" were the first monolatrists, when they adopted Marduk as their national god. Other cultures followed suit adopting different gods as their national god, and then later the Hebrews did the same, except they adopted Yahweh.

The P author, and Jeremiah, who wrote Deuteronomy and made a lot of edits in the Tetrateuch tries to say that El Elyon, El Shaddai and El Berith are one in the same with Yahweh, when in fact those were individual deities part of pantheon worshiped by the Ugarits and Hebrews.

That pantheon was El, Ba'al, El Elyon, El Berith, El Shaddai, Mot, Yam, Asherah, Dagon, Kothar, Lothan, and Yahweh.

That pantheon corresponds to Enki, Marduk, Nergal, Gibil, Ningishiddza, Dumuzi, Enlil, Ninurta, Adad, Shamash, Sin and Ianna in the Sumerian/Akkadian pantheon.

Asherah/Ianna was Yahweh's consort.

Lothan/Enki is the serpent sea god, so naturally, Yam is "sea" in classical biblical Hebrew, as in Yam Suf, the Sea of Reeds.

Mot/Gibil is the god of death, so naturally mot in classical biblical Hebrew is one of the words for death.

The different authors of the texts often rewrote things for political and social reasons.

That's why you have two vastly different stories of Joseph going to Egypt.

The E author doesn't give a damn about Judah, so he says Joseph's brothers threw him into a well and left him to die, but a passing trade caravan heard Joseph's cries for help and rescued him, only to sell him as a slave in Egypt.

But, for the J author, Judah is a hero, so we have to spin the story so that Joseph's brothers wanted to throw him into a well, but Judah intervened and suggested they sell Joseph as a slave to a passing trade caravan.

That's why you have two, three and sometimes four versions of the same story, because they each have different spins for political and social reasons.

So, when Jeremiah is editing the texts, he's greatly offended by X-moses' name, so he simply struck the name of the Egyptian deity that prefixed X-moses' real name, because it was incompatible with Yahweh.

X-moses, Aaron, Dathan et al are exclusively Egyptian words and names, not Canaanite or Hebrew.

The word "moses" is rendered in Egyptian as m-s-s and it means emanating from and it is always prefixed with the name of a deity, like Tutmoses, Rameses, Ptahmoses.

The real name of X-moses might have been Ptahmoses, but Jeremiah would never let that stand so he just struck it from the text and it became X-moses.

Hopefully, one day we'll find earlier texts, and there's a good chance we'll find them in the area of northern kingdom, because the E writer focused a lot on X-moses but not on Aaron (whom he thought was a bastard-jerk), and we'll know X-moses' real name.
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Old 04-06-2019, 03:04 PM
 
5,538 posts, read 2,170,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Because my question is directed for the main Religion forum, which is primarily atheist. They are the ones who seem to be turned off by religion, based partly on what I believe is their severe misunderstanding of the Bible.
How are your thoughts about atheism and atheists not full of preconceived ideas? What advantage for my thoughts are thete if disarm all the parts I think are unbelievable prior to Abraham and disassociate all the parts after him with the remaining parts that I didn't disgard?

I would be left without Genesis, original sin, or the need for Jesus as a saviour. What can I do with that? Why believe in that over Wicca, the Norse God's or Napi? You still are missing the reason to believe in any gods. You are missing the reasons to accept the God of the Bible.
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Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
An irrelevant straw man to my post.

But if you want to understand the Abrahamic god, then surely you need to know which god in the bible you are talking about? And why just the Bible? Islam also has an Abrahamic god?
The first poster to respond to the OP IS Muslim.
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Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
It would seem like MQ erred when trying to 'help' you keep us out of it, then
Apparently.

I thought he was trying to discuss a concept based on the beliefs of the three Abrahamic religions.
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Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That's what I thought. Which is why I said that - for atheists, your argument is a non -starter, and it was perfectly valid to say 'first prove a god, then prove it's Biblegod, then you can talk'.

It is a post better directed to Christian forum.
Somebody else said the same thing, but again--the second poster in the thread is a Muslim, and for that reason, it stays here.
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Old Yesterday, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I see your point, but how can you understand "the Abrahamic God" if he doesn't exist?
Well, when I first made that post I was under the mistaken assumption that the OP wanted to talk about a religious concept--Abraham starting off with his choice of following one God that led to the three major religions who trace their beginnings to this idea.

The question actually brought to mind the Thomas Cahill book, The Gifts of the Jews, which starts back in the ancient Mesopotamian world that is said to have produced "Avram". It was very interesting to me.

https://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Jews-Ch.../dp/0385482493

If one doesn't think "the Abrahamic God" exists, then one would have no interest in participating in such a discussion, unless one wanted to discuss it as mythology

However, it turned out later in the thread that the OP said he was trying to prove something to atheists, so, as the Sharks say, "I'm out."
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,082 posts, read 744,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Again, which god?

The Jews and Muslims accept one only god, that of the OT; but parts of the OT agrees with archeaology that Yahweh had a wife. And then there is Christianity, with Jesus being god and Jesus not being god. And then we have a Gnostic god hidden in the gospel of John (and it is not Yahweh).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Now read my OP again in light of this.
GoCardinals answered this for me. You can not even decide on what this god is.

So why try? Why not simply be nice to each other and let each believe what they want? Because as soon as you start to try and defend your position, you reach this problem of different definitions of the Abrahamic god.
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,082 posts, read 744,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Because my question is directed for the main Religion forum, which is primarily atheist. They are the ones who seem to be turned off by religion, based partly on what I believe is their severe misunderstanding of the Bible.
No, we see no evidence for gods. It really is that simple.

And we do understand the Bible. Both literally and metaphorically. Because different Christians (and possibly the Jews and Muslims as well) can not decide what is literal and what is allegory. So we see both sides, whereas each Christian only sees one side, their own.
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