U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-07-2019, 03:48 PM
 
Location: US
27,339 posts, read 14,690,118 times
Reputation: 1683

Advertisements


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HWgrYr..._continue=1504


Rabbi Tovia Singer makes a reference to repentance near the end that sounds a lot like the parable of the Prodigal Son...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-08-2019, 05:31 PM
 
10,803 posts, read 11,012,856 times
Reputation: 3277
The suffering servant is Israel. It is NOT Jesus. Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. Propagandistic rubbish.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2019, 06:07 PM
 
4,432 posts, read 1,130,857 times
Reputation: 229
Jehovah is salvation.

here he is ... Psa 118:15

The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

Psa 118:16

The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

118:17

I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

Psa 118:18

The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death
.( why because he closed deaths mouth and canceled their covenant with death?)

Psa 118:19

Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

Psa 118:20

This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

Psa 118:21

I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

Psa 118:22

The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.


another 3 hump camel? careful boys..

should we wonder who rejoicing is ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfzOOH0K1OM

Last edited by n..Xuipa; 04-08-2019 at 06:17 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 01:42 AM
 
Location: California USA
893 posts, read 607,493 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The suffering servant is Israel. It is NOT Jesus. Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. Propagandistic rubbish.

Take note of some ancient Jewish commentators on the identification of the servant in Isaiah 53

From the Targum Y'honatan

Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men.

the Babylonian Talmud applies Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah:

The Babylonian Talmud states:
'The Messiah—what is his name?…The Rabbis say, The leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, The sick one, as it is said, “Surely he hath borne our sicknesses.”


Read Isaiah 53 and take careful note of verse 8:

" From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people...." Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 53

It's not Israel. Why? When were Jews cut off from the land of the living? Jews are obviously present down to this day. Also, How can it be said that "Israel" suffered for the sake of "my people?" Clearly "my people" are Isaiah's people. Doesn't make sense if its Israel.

Also here's a reference found in the Midrash Rabbah explaining Ruth 2:14

http://images.shulcloud.com/618/uplo...ashonruth2.pdf

Notice the "fifth interpretation"


"-The fifth interpretation makes it refer to the Messiah."

"AND DIP YOUR MORSEL IN THE VINEGAR refers to his sufferings, as it is said, “But he was wounded because of our transgressions” (Isa. 53:5).

The interpretation of Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel seemed to have started in the 10th century with Rashi and later Rabbis. Up until that time the consensus was Isaiah 53 referred to the Messiah. Given the state of affairs during that time between Jews and Christians and how Christianity was practiced at that time (medieval Christianity was far removed from early Christianity) one could understand why there would be a push for Jews to preserve their faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 02:51 AM
 
8,030 posts, read 6,941,307 times
Reputation: 1412
This Isaiah 53 is a prophetic Word of the deliverer Jesus Christ , as like this thread He was despised and rejected by men , as He poured out His soul onto death which is an offense to the carnal mind
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 05:06 AM
 
Location: NJ
1,328 posts, read 466,890 times
Reputation: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
Take note of some ancient Jewish commentators on the identification of the servant in Isaiah 53

From the Targum Y'honatan

Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men.
That's in 52:13, not 53. Here is some reading on the matter. https://judaismsanswer.com/targum.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
the Babylonian Talmud applies Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah:

The Babylonian Talmud states:
'The Messiah—what is his name?…The Rabbis say, The leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, The sick one, as it is said, “Surely he hath borne our sicknesses.”
Actually, no. The Talmud has a long section with rabbis musing about the possible name of the messiah, finding verses which relate to specific rabbis (as a way of making those rabbis look better). A number of
verses from unrelated sections are cited. This doesn't make those verses (or their contexts) messianic -- it makes them subject to word games. If you learn how to learn Talmud, you will see this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
Read Isaiah 53 and take careful note of verse 8:

" From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people...." Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 53

It's not Israel. Why? When were Jews cut off from the land of the living? Jews are obviously present down to this day. Also, How can it be said that "Israel" suffered for the sake of "my people?" Clearly "my people" are Isaiah's people. Doesn't make sense if its Israel.
The "land of the living" is a reference to the country of Israel from which the Jews were cut off via exile (from the Radak)
כאשר גלה מארצו שנקראת ארץ חיים, כמו אתהלך לפני ה' בארצות החיים, ויש לפרש כי בגלות נחשב באמת כאלו נגזר מארץ חיים ואיך היינו חושבים שתהיה לו גדולה כזו
. The targum actually says that the verse refers to a future in which the rule of other nations over the land of Israel will end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
Also here's a reference found in the Midrash Rabbah explaining Ruth 2:14

http://images.shulcloud.com/618/uplo...ashonruth2.pdf

Notice the "fifth interpretation"


"-The fifth interpretation makes it refer to the Messiah."

"AND DIP YOUR MORSEL IN THE VINEGAR refers to his sufferings, as it is said, “But he was wounded because of our transgressions” (Isa. 53:5).
If your source is a fifth interpretation from a medrash which is making a linguistic connection to tie Ruth to the messiah then that's fine with me after she has already been tied to so many others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 06:59 AM
 
Location: NJ
1,328 posts, read 466,890 times
Reputation: 558
A few additional notes:
first off, the commentator Rashi identifies the servant with the nation, but he doesn't do this as an innovation. He ties the text together, pointing out that, through the connection of identical words, the text is a single whole. Additionally, he connects the use of language across texts showing how the figures of speech here reflect identical figures used elsewhere. What should be most amazing is that there is no talmudic citation of these verses as messianic other than the interpretation of a word in order to make an aggadic comment about the name of a rabbi. It isn't that the talmud ignores chapters 51, 52 and 53. 51 is frequently connected to the Jews talmudically (check out Bavva Kama 117a and Eiruvin 65a), 52 is connected to the Jews in Rosh Hashana 31b, Sanhedrin 97b.

The talmud, interestingly, does cite other medrash about this chapter:
tractate Brachot (5a) cites the medrash which says that 53:10 refers to all people God loves (from the Medrash Ein Yaakov)
the same tractate (57b) cites Bereisheet Rabbah which says that there are 6 things that are good omens for a sick person, including a seminal emission, as proven by 53:10. Does this mean that 53:10 is ABOUT a sick person who has a seminal emission? (by the way, tractate Yoma, 88a also comments that 53:10 is "about" a priest's seminal emission).

The Jerusalem talmud (Shekalim 21a) says that 53:11 is about Rabbi Akiva, or the Men of the great Assembly while the talmud Bavli (sotah 14a) says that 53:11 is about all Jews who follow the commandments.

The Medrash also (medrash tanchuma on 53:7) connects it to all men while the Tanna D'bei R' Eliyahu (53:11) connects the text to scholars. Bamidbar Rabbah (53:12) connects the text directly to Israel). So saying that the connection between 53 and the Jews is something from later is wrong.

Interestingly (at least to me) the targum says that 53:5 is about the temple, not any person.

So the question remains -- is it possible that, in the mind of some individuals, isolated references in Isaiah can ALSO be connected to a messianic figure? Sure, in some distant and deeper way, but there is an idea in Jewish understanding, ein mikra yotze midei peshuto, a verse cannot be understood ignoring its normative reading.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 08:20 AM
 
37,580 posts, read 10,188,476 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
This Isaiah 53 is a prophetic Word of the deliverer Jesus Christ , as like this thread He was despised and rejected by men , as He poured out His soul onto death which is an offense to the carnal mind
I don't think so. I think that if he has succeeded, ruled Judea a Galilee and beat off all Roman attempts to retake it and died peacefully honoured by the country, you could have found Bible verses to 'predict' that. Because he failed, appropriate verses are found.

And because Christians turned Jesus into a Christian, David wailing about how things are not going to well for him, or Isaiah bleating about how the Assyrians kicked their asses yet again are quotemined to provide prophecies for the martydom -obsession of Christianity.


I did one -Jesus -prophecy study long ago for Kdbrick -who is long gone (perhaps ) but he refused to look As believers do when confronted with evidence that totally floors them. Maybe one day I'll do it again. But let me promise you old son, prophecy is either adapted to fit the Jesus story (as in the death of Judas), or the Jesus story is adapted to suit the prophecy as in the broken legs and spear -thrust. Which is in John and neither Mark, Matthew or Luke know of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,956 posts, read 7,448,615 times
Reputation: 1674
Well, Trans, that is all a necessary part of turning a message about living in community with God and man into a religion about the person who brought it. Religion is a much better tool for control than a message.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2019, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,330 posts, read 5,934,589 times
Reputation: 5605
I just read it. Looks like it is about some guy referred to as "he" and occasionally "him".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top