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Old 04-11-2019, 03:05 AM
 
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Many can reject the bible as fake and Jesus as fake , as Jesus died in vain for these people , BUT Holy Spirit who is the promise of Jesus Christ who is a resident of Heaven did come at Pentecost after the cross of Jesus Christ ..... And millions of Christians have the eternal witness of Holy Spirit who is the proof of the cross of Christ , and Holy Spirit is in the exact character of the biblical loving God , as the only deception is the conspiracy of deniers to call this witness a lie
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,541 posts, read 8,109,973 times
Reputation: 14826
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't understand what the "forced" part is.
I have to agree with this. I don’t see that all Christians are forced to this.

My mother is still alive, and a Christian. She attends church weekly, and lives in a church operated retirement home. She would also have no idea about any of these arguments, pro or con.

To her, God is simply a reality, Christianity is our best explanation of things, the flood of Noah happened 6000 years ago and the dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years before that. People of other religions will go to heaven if they are good people, all bad people go to hell, it is important to believe in god. Some things in the Bible are probably wrong, but it is an accurate story of history.

In her view, Christianity is simply the background of life. It is like light, or gravity. You don’t think too much about it, you just accept it.

I will agree that my mother’s views are muddled and include contradictions, but she isn’t forced to defend anything. She simply lives in her religious environment.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:21 AM
 
37,600 posts, read 10,195,382 times
Reputation: 4983
I think 'Christian' here has to be parsed as 'Christian apologists'. I think Christianity - all religion in fact - is a Big Lie. I just do. So to an extent they are all lying to themselves by accepting it without question. But we do with 'science' as well. As the religious know very well, and never let us forget it.

It is really those Christians who discuss the matter, and they are arguing to peddle their religion, however they like to say it is 'just explaining'. And in discussion, eventually (we hellbound pondslime will assert) there will come a point where they either have to accept where the evidence points or deny it. This may be presented as Faith but it is (as it looks to atheists) lying to themselves. And it happens often and repeatedly.

.and the non - PC Saying that must Not Be Said, even if it looks true ..looms...No, I will not say it..
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:34 AM
 
10,805 posts, read 11,012,856 times
Reputation: 3278
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Prophecy is not decided by those who receive it, Thrill. It is only revealed and exposed by the events that occur. It is silly to think that someone would receive inspiration and record it for future generations KNOWING what it would foretell some 700-800 years later. You also mix personal stories that happen to appear in the same narratives as if they determine what in the narrative is inspired prophecy and what is not which is also silly. Only time reveals what is prophetic and what is not.
I've concluded, Mystic that your intellect operates at a much higher level than most the rest of us, certainly me. And as such you see dozens of shades of gray and in technicolor on issues where I mostly just see black and white, and for me that's a good thing because at its core a belief is either right or its wrong; it's either the truth or a lie.

Prophecy: passages taken out of the Old Testament: true. Prophetic: false. Confined to Old Testament: true. Prophetic about Jesus: false. Christians try to pass off OT passages as prophecies of Jesus: true. Prophecies are authenticated as genuine prophecies of Jesus: false.

You're agreeing with me in part, Mystic. Isaiah had no idea his "young girl shall conceive" passage would be used 700 years later to try to prove Isaiah was speaking of Jesus. I've already shown how Isaiah was speaking of his own child.

Quote:
It is only revealed and exposed by the events that occur.
The Isaiah passage was exposed by me as not about Jesus. But millions of Christians have been duped by dishonest churchmen into believing it IS about Jesus. I hope you can see the difference between the two and how one is the truth and one is a lie. But again, to you with your technicolor imagination you may see this whole issue in several spectrums so there is no right or wrong about it. Maybe in the entire conversation, for you there IS no such thing as right and wrong, truth and lie. Then everything I said in the OP will go right over your head. I accept that now and understand why, having read many of your conversations with others here who are just as "mystified" by your points of view as I am.
Quote:
It is silly to think that someone would receive inspiration and record it for future generations KNOWING what it would foretell some 700-800 years later.
Well, I agree. But tell that to Mike555 and jeffbase and Ozzy and BaptistFundie and jimmie. They're adamant that Jesus was foretold in the OT as far back as Genesis 3:15. It's not their fault. They've been brainwashed with this notion since the cradle and could sooner stop breathing than give up this belief.

Quote:
You also mix personal stories that happen to appear in the same narratives as if they determine what in the narrative is inspired prophecy and what is not which is also silly.
I only mix in what the scriptures connected to the "prophetic" passages say. The example of King Ahaz is a perfect example. The "young maid" conceiving the child is his wife. The child will know good from evil before the two kinds attack Ahaz. A perfect giveaway that it is NOT Jesus is this:

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good." Isaiah7:15

Did Jesus need to eat butter and honey to be able tell the difference between good and evil???????? Not that I have ever read in the gospels.

That's what the passage says. I haven't added anything to it. But when someone reads around the "prophetic" passage they see it is not about Jesus at all, it's about Isaiah's child.

Quote:
Only time reveals what is prophetic and what is not.
Mystic, show me any passage in the Old Testament purportedly prophetic about Jesus and I will demonstrate it has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with Jesus. That's my challenge to you. That's my challenge to ANY Christian apologist around here.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-11-2019 at 09:44 AM..
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:43 PM
 
Location: US
27,346 posts, read 14,690,118 times
Reputation: 1684
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I've concluded, Mystic that your intellect operates at a much higher level than most the rest of us, certainly me. And as such you see dozens of shades of gray and in technicolor on issues where I mostly just see black and white, and for me that's a good thing because at its core a belief is either right or its wrong; it's either the truth or a lie.

Prophecy: passages taken out of the Old Testament: true. Prophetic: false. Confined to Old Testament: true. Prophetic about Jesus: false. Christians try to pass off OT passages as prophecies of Jesus: true. Prophecies are authenticated as genuine prophecies of Jesus: false.

You're agreeing with me in part, Mystic. Isaiah had no idea his "young girl shall conceive" passage would be used 700 years later to try to prove Isaiah was speaking of Jesus. I've already shown how Isaiah was speaking of his own child.

The Isaiah passage was exposed by me as not about Jesus. But millions of Christians have been duped by dishonest churchmen into believing it IS about Jesus. I hope you can see the difference between the two and how one is the truth and one is a lie. But again, to you with your technicolor imagination you may see this whole issue in several spectrums so there is no right or wrong about it. Maybe in the entire conversation, for you there IS no such thing as right and wrong, truth and lie. Then everything I said in the OP will go right over your head. I accept that now and understand why, having read many of your conversations with others here who are just as "mystified" by your points of view as I am.
Well, I agree. But tell that to Mike555 and jeffbase and Ozzy and BaptistFundie and jimmie. They're adamant that Jesus was foretold in the OT as far back as Genesis 3:15. It's not their fault. They've been brainwashed with this notion since the cradle and could sooner stop breathing than give up this belief.

I only mix in what the scriptures connected to the "prophetic" passages say. The example of King Ahaz is a perfect example. The "young maid" conceiving the child is his wife. The child will know good from evil before the two kinds attack Ahaz. A perfect giveaway that it is NOT Jesus is this:

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good." Isaiah7:15

Did Jesus need to eat butter and honey to be able tell the difference between good and evil???????? Not that I have ever read in the gospels.

That's what the passage says. I haven't added anything to it. But when someone reads around the "prophetic" passage they see it is not about Jesus at all, it's about Isaiah's child.

Mystic, show me any passage in the Old Testament purportedly prophetic about Jesus and I will demonstrate it has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with Jesus. That's my challenge to you. That's my challenge to ANY Christian apologist around here.
Are you “Yidding” out, Thrill?...
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:11 PM
 
38,958 posts, read 26,219,369 times
Reputation: 5964
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Mystic, show me any passage in the Old Testament purportedly prophetic about Jesus and I will demonstrate it has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with Jesus. That's my challenge to you. That's my challenge to ANY Christian apologist around here.
Thrill, expecting detailed specifics in the inspired interpretations by an ancient primitive intended to outline our species' SPIRITUAL evolution over a vast time span would be ludicrous. The highlights that are sufficiently striking to me in hindsight:

From Isaiah 52:15

. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophecy about Christ.]

From Isaiah 55:4

. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophecy.]

From Isaiah 55:5

. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophecy.]

From Isaiah 60:1

. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]

PS. Remember these prophesies were made some 700-800 years BEFORE the birth of Christ.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:25 PM
 
4,134 posts, read 1,521,940 times
Reputation: 1379
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Many can reject the bible as fake and Jesus as fake , as Jesus died in vain. :: snip ::

See the problem here?

How the HECK can God do something that goes in vain?

When God decides to do something and he takes action, then there is ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE of his effort getting failed. I wouldn’t call such an entity as “God” if his efforts go in vain.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:28 PM
 
10,805 posts, read 11,012,856 times
Reputation: 3278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Are you “Yidding” out, Thrill?...

You've got to be Yidding me!
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Old Yesterday, 06:43 PM
 
12,252 posts, read 4,684,258 times
Reputation: 1293
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Many can reject the bible as fake and Jesus as fake , as Jesus died in vain for these people , BUT Holy Spirit who is the promise of Jesus Christ who is a resident of Heaven did come at Pentecost after the cross of Jesus Christ ..... And millions of Christians have the eternal witness of Holy Spirit who is the proof of the cross of Christ , and Holy Spirit is in the exact character of the biblical loving God , as the only deception is the conspiracy of deniers to call this witness a lie
the bible isnt fake nor is jesus a fake.

some people that teach to a literal bible and jesus rising from the dead to save us from our sins are fakes.
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Old Yesterday, 10:34 PM
 
38,958 posts, read 26,219,369 times
Reputation: 5964
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Mystic, show me any passage in the Old Testament purportedly prophetic about Jesus and I will demonstrate it has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with Jesus. That's my challenge to you. That's my challenge to ANY Christian apologist around here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thrill, expecting detailed specifics in the inspired interpretations by an ancient primitive intended to outline our species' SPIRITUAL evolution over a vast time span would be ludicrous. The highlights that are sufficiently striking to me in hindsight:

From Isaiah 52:15

. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophecy about Christ.]

From Isaiah 55:4

. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophecy.]

From Isaiah 55:5

. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophecy.]

From Isaiah 60:1

. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]

PS. Remember these prophesies were made some 700-800 years BEFORE the birth of Christ.
<Crickets>
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