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Old 04-13-2019, 07:29 PM
 
10,850 posts, read 11,032,531 times
Reputation: 3288

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Ah, but if we interpret it metaphorically, it can be about anything we want to support any point we want to make, as is most convenient at the time. And if you object, we can roll our eyes and comment about how close minded and unenlightened you are.

Exactly! When you get into the interpretation of pronouns in the Old Testament "he" "his" could be about anybody depending on how the person using it wants to spin it to his interpretation. Now let's look at Mystic's Post #16:


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post

From Isaiah 52:15

. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophecy about Christ.]

From Isaiah 55:4

. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophecy.]

From Isaiah 55:5

. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophecy.]

From Isaiah 60:1

. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]

PS. Remember these prophesies were made some 700-800 years BEFORE the birth of Christ.

For Mystic, his technicolor imagination sees Jesus. The rest of us simply cannot see Jesus because we cannot equate the words to anything we've read in the gospels about Jesus. The words in the prophecies are so oblique and opaque that a good rhetorician could make then into Pontius Pilate if they wanted to.

Quote:
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the sky settle on you and all the animals of the wild gorge themselves on you. 5 I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. 6 I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh.
I've established Judas Iscariot as the subject of the "you" in that Ezekiel passage above. Why? Because who else do we know in the New Testament who hurled to the ground in an open field, (hint hint) a "potter's field" as a matter of fact. None other than Jesus' betrayer.

But wait! When you look farther into the "prophecy" you're given a clue about who the prophecy ISN"T about:
Quote:
“‘The sword of the king of Babylon
will come against you.
So now we know I was wrong. The prophecy is not about Judas because the king of Babylon never came against Judas. You see, Mystic? We can't know who these prophecies are about. They may not be about Jesus at all. When the OT writer uses "he" his" and "you" they can be about anyone in the Bible the apologist wants them to be about.
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Old 04-13-2019, 10:30 PM
 
39,076 posts, read 26,262,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Mystic, without checking it, who is this prophecy about:
I will tell you. It's about Judas Iscariot? Right?
I have no idea, but you are supposed to disabuse me of the SET of prophecies that describe the undeniable impact Jesus has had on human society over the centuries. You don't find it remotely intriguing that they were interpreted by an identified prophet of God some 700-800 years before there ever was a Jesus to have any impact on the concept of God? I'm waiting. Let's face it, you do not believe the consciousness of God exists to influence the evolution of human thinking about God. I do.
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Old 04-13-2019, 11:26 PM
 
10,850 posts, read 11,032,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I have no idea, but you are supposed to disabuse me of the SET of prophecies that describe the undeniable impact Jesus has had on human society over the centuries. You don't find it remotely intriguing that they were interpreted by an identified prophet of God some 700-800 years before there ever was a Jesus to have any impact on the concept of God? I'm waiting. Let's face it, you do not believe the consciousness of God exists to influence the evolution of human thinking about God. I do.
Mystic, we have to accept the fact that you are never going to find common ground with anyone in here on who these words are about no matter how convinced you, personally, are that they are about Jesus. So no matter how convincingly I persuade others here they are not about Jesus you cannot be persuaded otherwise. Nothing anyone can say to you can change that belief.

Quote:
He shall sprinkle many nations
Personally, I think that's Julius Caesar. He sprinkled many nations with Roman authority--Gaul (France), Switzerland, Belgium, Britain, Spain. Kings in those countries shut their mouth at him because of his overwhelming military might. For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen his(Julius Caesar's) strength. and they that heard not [of Caesar's might], have beheld it when he conquered them. I am convinced this passage is a prophecy of Julius Caesar the the coming might of the Roman empire. Who's to say my interpretation is wrong and yours is right, hmm....?

Let's look at another:

Quote:
Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles.
This is not about Jesus at all, this is about Paul. He is the leader of the gentiles, the "apostle to the gentiles". But then this could also be about Constantine, who was a leader and master of the Gentile Roman empire. God showed Constantine the cross of Jesus at the Milvian bridge and said, "In this sign, conquer!" Fits perfectly. God gave Constantine for a witness to the people to show them Christianity. Who's to say my interpretation is wrong and yours is right, hmm....?

You see, Mystic, I could take every single prophecy you have written and find innumerable people it could refer to. Why? Because the descriptions are so vague and so opaque that they could be describing just about anybody if I am a convincing-enough rhetorician to persuade them.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:15 AM
 
39,076 posts, read 26,262,057 times
Reputation: 5972
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Mystic, we have to accept the fact that you are never going to find common ground with anyone in here on who these words are about no matter how convinced you, personally, are that they are about Jesus. So no matter how convincingly I persuade others here they are not about Jesus you cannot be persuaded otherwise. Nothing anyone can say to you can change that belief.

Personally, I think that's Julius Caesar. He sprinkled many nations with Roman authority--Gaul (France), Switzerland, Belgium, Britain, Spain. Kings in those countries shut their mouth at him because of his overwhelming military might. For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen his(Julius Caesar's) strength. and they that heard not [of Caesar's might], have beheld it when he conquered them. I am convinced this passage is a prophecy of Julius Caesar the the coming might of the Roman empire. Who's to say my interpretation is wrong and yours is right, hmm....?

Let's look at another:

This is not about Jesus at all, this is about Paul. He is the leader of the gentiles, the "apostle to the gentiles". But then this could also be about Constantine, who was a leader and master of the Gentile Roman empire. God showed Constantine the cross of Jesus at the Milvian bridge and said, "In this sign, conquer!" Fits perfectly. God gave Constantine for a witness to the people to show them Christianity. Who's to say my interpretation is wrong and yours is right, hmm....?

You see, Mystic, I could take every single prophecy you have written and find innumerable people it could refer to. Why? Because the descriptions are so vague and so opaque that they could be describing just about anybody if I am a convincing-enough rhetorician to persuade them.
You seem to not realize that whoever you claim they refer to would ALL have to match the SAME individual as they do when you use Jesus. The history of the religious evolution of Christianity fulfills many more similar prophecies. How many of your alternates can demonstrate that kind of combined impact over millennia?
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:49 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,885 posts, read 10,807,120 times
Reputation: 7250
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I have no idea, but you are supposed to disabuse me of the SET of prophecies that describe the undeniable impact Jesus has had on human society over the centuries. You don't find it remotely intriguing that they were interpreted by an identified prophet of God some 700-800 years before there ever was a Jesus to have any impact on the concept of God? I'm waiting. Let's face it, you do not believe the consciousness of God exists to influence the evolution of human thinking about God. I do.
No, the issue is whether those prophecies, with a reasonable degree of certainty, refer to Jesus Christ. If reasonable doubt exists, they remain prophecies about something unknown. Prophecies are often short on certainties and specifics.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:19 AM
 
12,437 posts, read 4,711,426 times
Reputation: 1304
so, people prophesying a great person will come and help us in the future is wrong? I see them everyday.

But lets get back to the real claim.

"Jesus" as a central figure in a person's life to help them try, at the very least, not to be worse than yesterday is not that bad.

The claim:

The Jesus story, is a fossil record, a transition line, of the "spiritual growth" in humanity.

yes, thats fits. although we can argue that it wasn't really a step in spiritual growth as much as it was humans started to have time to think about other things than dinner. But it is a line in the record of human growth.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:21 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,253 posts, read 775,656 times
Reputation: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You seem to not realize that whoever you claim they refer to would ALL have to match the SAME individual as they do when you use Jesus. The history of the religious evolution of Christianity fulfills many more similar prophecies. How many of your alternates can demonstrate that kind of combined impact over millennia?
Which means either Jesus fulfilled those prophecies, or he was invented out of those alleged 'prophecies'.

h / !h
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:25 AM
 
12,437 posts, read 4,711,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Which means either Jesus fulfilled those prophecies, or he was invented out of those alleged 'prophecies'.

h / !h
yes he filled proficiency ... after the fact.

whats your point?

that means he didnt rise from the dead?

lmao,
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:13 AM
Status: "Pr 6:16-19, JeffBase, Pneuma!" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Germany
4,253 posts, read 775,656 times
Reputation: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
yes he filled proficiency ... after the fact.

whats your point?

that means he didnt rise from the dead?

lmao,
OK, I will type this slowly, just for you. If you need any help with the big words, please feel free to ask.

The point is that pretending one hypothesis (h) is true while ignoring other, more likely hypotheses (!h) means the argument h is not as strong as people think it is. Mystic appears to have forgotten this, so I explained it for him, and for anyone else with the intelligence to understand the point.
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Old 04-14-2019, 08:16 AM
 
37,801 posts, read 10,255,774 times
Reputation: 4996
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You seem to not realize that whoever you claim they refer to would ALL have to match the SAME individual as they do when you use Jesus. The history of the religious evolution of Christianity fulfills many more similar prophecies. How many of your alternates can demonstrate that kind of combined impact over millennia?
You are forgetting selection. If they didn't all match Julius Caesar, you'd drop those prophecies and pick a bunch more that did fit. This is the most attractive of the informal logical fallacies - selecting the evidence to fit the conclusion. It is the same old problem that happens when you start with the conclusion and look for the evidence to fit it. Even without having to fiddle it.
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