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Old 04-14-2019, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
14,916 posts, read 10,122,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Without a well-developed belief set about the issue, you would probably have no way to vet the information in the spiritual fossil record.
LMAO! 'Spiritual fossil record'. Where does he get it from??
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:20 AM
 
10,819 posts, read 11,023,428 times
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Mystic, you're missing my point. The point is that these words are so vague and indistinct to Jesus' life on earth that a good apologist could make them about anybody. Take an example, "He shall smooth nations and many shall worship at his altar". This is not from the Bible but it's typical of the general language found in the Old Testament. This can be about any great leader. Which nations? Many people worshiped at many great leaders' altars. Let's look at another one of yours:
Quote:
Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not
Wait a second. How can Jesus NOT know a nation?????????? Jesus knows everything. He is God, isn't he? So this cannot be about Jesus, right?

Well, as I said, a good rhetorician can make any vague words about anybody. Apologists face this problem all the time--how to make something that doesn't sound remotely like JesusTO BE about Jesus. In this case, an apologist would rationalize,

"Well, the prophecy is speaking of Jesus in his earthly ministry. While he was a man he divested himself of his Godly nature. Thus, there were certain things he didn't know such as the time of his return to earth. That's why he said, Of that day and time knoweth not the son of man or the angels but my father only. Jesus didn't know the day while he was on earth but after he ascended he knew the day."

We can spin these words to be about anybody we want. You say they're about Jesus. A Nazi is going to say they're about Hitler. A Communist is going to say they're about Lenin. And on and on.
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:44 AM
 
37,666 posts, read 10,228,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Mystic, you're missing my point. The point is that these words are so vague and indistinct to Jesus' life on earth that a good apologist could make them about anybody. Take an example, "He shall smooth nations and many shall worship at his altar". This is not from the Bible but it's typical of the general language found in the Old Testament. This can be about any great leader. Which nations? Many people worshiped at many great leaders' altars. Let's look at another one of yours:
Wait a second. How can Jesus NOT know a nation?????????? Jesus knows everything. He is God, isn't he? So this cannot be about Jesus, right?

Well, as I said, a good rhetorician can make any vague words about anybody. Apologists face this problem all the time--how to make something that doesn't sound remotely like JesusTO BE about Jesus. In this case, an apologist would rationalize,

"Well, the prophecy is speaking of Jesus in his earthly ministry. While he was a man he divested himself of his Godly nature. Thus, there were certain things he didn't know such as the time of his return to earth. That's why he said, Of that day and time knoweth not the son of man or the angels but my father only. Jesus didn't know the day while he was on earth but after he ascended he knew the day."

We can spin these words to be about anybody we want. You say they're about Jesus. A Nazi is going to say they're about Hitler. A Communist is going to say they're about Lenin. And on and on.
We have to be fair about this. We know that there is a lot of poetic simile about the OT, which is why it is considered valuable literature. A nation that God (Aka Jesus) doesn't know is one that never worshipped him, i. e gentiles. Of course God and Jesus in his part of God avatar would know them too. Which is why the apologetic of 'limited foreknowledge' has to be invented (1). And dammit there's another one who explained all that before I did.

The tougher prophecies are the ones picked to fit what actually has happened. The fact is that Christianity succeeded. It could have gone down at Roncevalles or Vienna, but it didn't. The Muslim world might have run into trouble if the west had backed Byzantium instead of sacking it. And why on earth God didn't see that the crusades rolled the muslims out of the middle east is inexplicable in view of all the trouble we'd get later on, except that (of course) that there is no god there, 'that it's all part of God's plan' is wearing damn' thin and this is all human fighting over nothing.

(1) by me. Christian apologists never even get to asking the questions that would have to be answered by it and wouldn't touch that can labelled 'live bait' in any case.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:24 AM
 
10,819 posts, read 11,023,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
We have to be fair about this. We know that there is a lot of poetic simile about the OT, which is why it is considered valuable literature. A nation that God (Aka Jesus) doesn't know is one that never worshipped him, i. e gentiles. Of course God and Jesus in his part of God avatar would know them too. Which is why the apologetic of 'limited foreknowledge' has to be invented (1). And dammit there's another one who explained all that before I did.

The tougher prophecies are the ones picked to fit what actually has happened. The fact is that Christianity succeeded. It could have gone down at Roncevalles or Vienna, but it didn't. The Muslim world might have run into trouble if the west had backed Byzantium instead of sacking it. And why on earth God didn't see that the crusades rolled the muslims out of the middle east is inexplicable in view of all the trouble we'd get later on, except that (of course) that there is no god there, 'that it's all part of God's plan' is wearing damn' thin and this is all human fighting over nothing.

(1) by me. Christian apologists never even get to asking the questions that would have to be answered by it and wouldn't touch that can labelled 'live bait' in any case.

Exactly right, Trans. Why did Christianity succeed? Well, up to Constantine's time it wasn't really "succeeding". It was just another backwater religion competing with Mithra-ism, the other popular religion in the Roman empire and a few others. Christianity succeeded by a complete quirk of good fortune. The religious lottery could have been won by Mithra, in which case all Christians today would be Mithrites and our calendars would be reading AM (after Mithra) instead of AD. At the Council of Nicaea Constantine was looking for the best god to satisfy a motley crew of different warring religious leaders. Constantine wanted a god to unify his Roman empire, so he combined Hesus, a Druid god with Kristus (Krishna) to get

Hesus Kristus-->Jesus Kristus-->Jesus the Christus-->Jesus the Christ. Simple evolution. So the Galilean fisherman, Yeshua bar Joseph became Jesus Christ and the rest is history. Christianity became the most powerful force on the planet for 1500 years until it's power and influence was vanquished by the Internet and the knowledge the Internet brought to thinking people who continue to learn what Christianity really is all about.
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:03 PM
 
38,994 posts, read 26,242,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
No, the issue is whether those prophecies, with a reasonable degree of certainty, refer to Jesus Christ. If reasonable doubt exists, they remain prophecies about something unknown. Prophecies are often short on certainties and specifics.
Wrong. Prophecy is NOT determined by expectations. Their validity is established over time. Hindsight, NOT foresight is the way prophecy is validated. They do not remain unknown when several millennia of outcomes can be attributed to the SAME individual's impact especially over such a vast time period however it is achieved.
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Wrong. Prophecy is NOT determined by expectations. Their validity is established over time. Hindsight, NOT foresight is the way prophecy is validated. They do not remain unknown when several millennia of outcomes can be attributed to the SAME individual's impact especially over such a vast time period however it is achieved.
Which makes prophecy rather pointless of course.

The ability to work towards some vague prophecy, interpreting it rather liberally, with no timeline associated, means that almost any prediction can be said to come true.

Sure, your god could have set things up this way, but what is the point if it cannot be differentiated from any other written word?
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:09 PM
 
38,994 posts, read 26,242,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Which means either Jesus fulfilled those prophecies, or he was invented out of those alleged 'prophecies'.

h / !h
So you have just become the KING of conspiracy theories, Harry. You are propounding an over TWO MILLENNIA-LONG conspiracy. Not only that, you ignore the fact that the prophecies do NOT specify (and couldn't possibly) the WAY they would be fulfilled. It doesn't matter how they were fulfilled given their origins over 700-800 centuries BEFORE the central person was even born!!
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:13 PM
 
37,666 posts, read 10,228,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Wrong. Prophecy is NOT determined by expectations. Their validity is established over time. Hindsight, NOT foresight is the way prophecy is validated. They do not remain unknown when several millennia of outcomes can be attributed to the SAME individual's impact especially over such a vast time period however it is achieved.
You are bambouzling yourself, Mystic. You start with Jesus, or Christianity, or the End Times' and you rummage through the OT for anything that strikes you as similar.

Prophecy fulfilled! Those prophecies that do seem to make predictions - Tye, Babylon and Daniel, are ok ...sorta...while dealing retrospectively with history, but as soon as they get up to their own time, (so one can date them) they start to go wrong.

Prophecy failed.

As i have said several times, the Jesus prophecies half work the same way, Or they can adapt the Jesus story to 'fulfil' a convenient prophecy in the Bible, never mind what the original text meant or even what it said. In some cases it can even be altered where needed.

Don't let yourself be fooled by this religious con -trick old mate.
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:15 PM
 
38,994 posts, read 26,242,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Which makes prophecy rather pointless of course.

The ability to work towards some vague prophecy, interpreting it rather liberally, with no timeline associated, means that almost any prediction can be said to come true.

Sure, your god could have set things up this way, but what is the point if it cannot be differentiated from any other written word?
It doesn't have to be differentiated because the progression of events resulting in the fulfillment of them will identify the relevant ones. You seem to miss the central point of having such a vast time period of prophecy fulfilled for the SAME PERSON. Let's face it, having a significant societal impact during one's life is a rare enough event, but to have a sustained impact over two millennia is virtually impossible yet it occurred with Jesus.
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,562 posts, read 8,125,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It doesn't have to be differentiated because the progression of events resulting in the fulfillment of them will identify the relevant ones. You seem to miss the central point of having such a vast time period of prophecy fulfilled for the SAME PERSON. Let's face it, having a significant societal impact during one's life is a rare enough event, but to have a sustained impact over two millennia is virtually impossible yet it occurred with Jesus.
Sure, if you massage and interpret the prophecies in such a way to make Jesus fit. Which is definitely easier to do if you can write the biography of Jesus' life (if he actually existed) a few decades later to give yourself some time to retcon the stories to whichever bits of the OT you decide are prophetic.
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